A question of The Force.

Here's a nice translation quote, which has traction to this convo if one were to consider spiritual as mind (subjective experience/knowledge) and martial as body and environment (objective knowledge), by Yang Pan-hou in Wu Ch'uan-yu's 'Forty Chapters' via wikipedia. Just skip the inner cosmology if you find yourself triggered by concepts you don't understand, or choose to acknowledge, or have a rigid understanding of..... as the point is sprinkled throughout and I'm not presenting this as gospel or telling anyone how they must interpret it. In other words try replacing spiritual with mind and martial with body/environment;

The spiritual is the essence, the martial is the application. Spiritual development in the realm of martial arts is applied through the ching (metabolic energy), ch'i (breath energy) and shen (spiritual energy) - the practise of physical culture. When the martial is matched with the spiritual and it is experienced in the body and mind, this then is the practise of martial arts. With the spiritual and martial we must speak of "firing time," for their development unfolds according to the proper sequence. This is the root of physical culture. Therefore, the practise of the martial arts in a spiritual way is soft-style exercise, the sinew power of ching, ch'i and shen. When the martial arts are practical in an exclusively martial way, this is hard style, or simply brute force. The spiritual without martial training is essence without application; the martial without spiritual accompaniment is application without essence. A lone pole cannot stand, a single palm cannot clap. This is not only true of physical culture and martial arts, but all things are subject to this principle. The spiritual is internal principle; the martial is external skill. External skill without internal principle is simply physical ferocity. This is a far cry from the original nature of the art, and by bullying an opponent one eventually invites disaster. To understand the internal principles without the external skill is simply an armchair art. Without knowing the applications, one will be lost in an actual confrontation. When it comes to applying this art, one cannot afford to ignore the significance of the two words: spiritual and martial.

A bit of fun :side:

Uzima Moto wrote: What I usually hear is people not wanting to examine the proof there is and find ways to expand our working knowledge of it. There are plenty of people who have experienced obe's, clairvoyance, precognition, and other "psychic" phenomena. Enough that it's unconscionable to me that the broader "scientific community" avoids it all together.. What I hear is that if we can't detect these phenomena through natural methods, then it doesn't exist.. but that's like trying to catch air in a net..

There are plenty of people with claims of those type of experiences. If you have documentation of people actually having had them, do feel free to share. As far as I'm aware, there is any number of such rumors, often altered tales much different from what ever events transpired, and a slightly smaller number of tests conducted with people who make such claims, that exclusively fail to show any substance to the claims. It is only being avoided after so many resources were wasted on taking the claims seriously. Like if after half a million times a test returns negative, one must ask oneself if one might not have better things to do than try the half a million and first time, just to be sure.
As for the existence of such things, well, to put it the way you did, nobody I know is saying that. If however natural methods fail to show any indication that the phenomenon claimed occurs in nature, then we have no basis to believe that it does. And if the claims is so constructed as to predict indication within measurable margins and the prediction keeps failing in 100% of the attempts, then one is perfectly reasonable in not only not accepting the notion that the claimed thing occurs in nature, but in rejecting it, too. This is not a claim about what is or isn't real, it's about what is or isn't reasonable to believe given the results we keep gathering.

I've had personal experiences with telekinesis. I did a simple experiment.. but besides having things that could pick up the effects of my aura on my body. The main point of the experiment was to see the minds ability to control and project these effects..

Very good. I'm certain if you can replicate your results consistently under controlled conditions, any number of institutions would be happy to fund further research into this new hitherto unknown occurrence and how it can be best employed to save and improve lives. I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress and the good it'll serve yourself and mankind more broadly.

Uzima Moto wrote: What I'm trying to get my more skeptical Jedi to understand is there are aspects of The Force that can't be found on electromagnetic spectrum. The energy most are referring to only influences itself and whatever is connected to it. You'll never register it on a scale. Only see the effects on the object of focus..

How is that different from it not being there at all, though? Surely, when of any thing in the world we say that it "exists", we mean that it engages in some kind of interaction we are able to detect. Sometimes it is as simple as our ability to see it, i.e. it interacts with our eyes (by sending light out) such that we can. Sometimes it is more subtle, like when a stove heats the water and we eventually see it boil, though we never saw any of the infrared light transmitted to the water. Sometimes we can barely detect an effect at all be it not for instruments sensitive enough. But if something affects nothing, then its presence is literally indistinguishable from its absence. If the Force is actually in any meaningful way a part of the world we are another part of, then surely we can only tell that by detecting how it affects things. If it only influences itself and manifests in no other detectable way, how is that different from it not being there at all? And how is anyone allegedly feeling it, if it interacts in no feelable way?

Your thoughts create impressions on your body's nervous system. Which sends signals for the body to respond in kind.. "Lift arm, look left" your body takes cue from you. It doesn't move autonomously..

My agreement here is partial and hesitant. Yes, your mind and body affect each other. What I disagree with is that they are separable. Your mind is as much a produce of your body as the lifting of you arm is. Your brain is running a (admittedly complicated) process we are happy to summarize colloquially as just "the mind" and a lot of the arm lifting your body performs comes from the obedience of particular commands generated by your brain during that process. Whether that counts for autonomousness of your body or not I'm happy to leave to the philosophers to discuss, but if what we know about how stuff works is any good at all then there seems to be no sense in which it makes any to conceive of some kind of ghost in the machine, sitting in control of it.

Gisteron wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: What I usually hear is people not wanting to examine the proof there is and find ways to expand our working knowledge of it. There are plenty of people who have experienced obe's, clairvoyance, precognition, and other "psychic" phenomena. Enough that it's unconscionable to me that the broader "scientific community" avoids it all together.. What I hear is that if we can't detect these phenomena through natural methods, then it doesn't exist.. but that's like trying to catch air in a net..

There are plenty of people with claims of those type of experiences. If you have documentation of people actually having had them, do feel free to share. As far as I'm aware, there is any number of such rumors, often altered tales much different from what ever events transpired, and a slightly smaller number of tests conducted with people who make such claims, that exclusively fail to show any substance to the claims. It is only being avoided after so many resources were wasted on taking the claims seriously. Like if after half a million times a test returns negative, one must ask oneself if one might not have better things to do than try the half a million and first time, just to be sure.

I have a few times. It's not easily controlled for me, and quite rare. All I can do is share insights into its possible patterns of action and keep exploring techniques to get more control over it. But it would be incorrect to assume that had no benefit in my life just because I cannot control it fully. Whether people believe or not is irrelevant to me, but I've shared these things with Ms Adder ahead of time only to have them come true on half a dozen occasions, and I'm only talking about the higher order instances - as most I bin for being not unique enough to rule out corrupting factors. The higher order events leave no doubt and are never wrong.... its as if its not only up to me for the to occur which I know is really woowoo

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: So by your understanding and definitions are you saying that portions of The Force are on the magnetic spectrum? If so how do those interact with reality? by this Im asking what effects on what objects of focus are present?

So my impression of your map of the body is one in which mind or spirit or soul is separate than body, a distinct manifestation that continues on after the bodies death and is responsible for the animation of the physical body. You have also told me that I have misunderstood your concept of "heaven". Can you describe to me what makes you believe that "mind" is separate from body and what is your concept of The Force or Heaven that it returns to upon physical death? Your description hints at the fact that the body will not move without the spirit to manipulate it - that "you" or "self" is not the body. So how did you come to this conclusion that we are not our bodies but instead it consists of two separate things? And by what mechanism or process does the mind or soul use to manipulate or otherwise influence the body to be animated?

Technically, all things are The Force. Based on the idea of immanency. However, there are deeper manifestations of it "beyond" the physical. This is just where the "current" is slowest. The EMS being a small part. Though one of the aspects that's closest to ethereal energy. The same that's present in our bodies. All objects have bodies of ethereal energy that feed their atomic bodies in a small but meaningful way. Beyond the quantum level..
For whatever reason, our ethereal bodies are alive, organized, and individuated into a single conscious being.. awareness is a trait shared by all life.. but being able to experience it as we do is something exceedingly more complex.. it needs further study.. however that complexity rose with the complexity of our bodies. As if they evolved together..

"You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you…me…the tree…the rock…everywhere!"

Mind, or soul, are separate from the body in nature. Yet they are made for each other and intimately linked. One cannot operate in this world without the other..

Take a person who is brain dead. Their brain is usually damaged to the point where the soul can no longer operate the body. Whether it's still attached is a different story..
Our thoughts, reflexes, and instincts come from the mind. Our ethereal bodies impress upon the ethereal energy of our bioelectric field. One of the easiest "materials" to manipulate due to "lighter" signature in the ethereal. If the body cannot properly respond to impressions nor give proper input for the mind to act on. There's essentially a discordance and the body will not move. It's automated processes still going, but no operator home.. and the soul, being it's own body, wouldn't completely dissolve in the absence of the body. Just sort of disconnect from the vessel and recede into itself..

Gisteron wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: What I usually hear is people not wanting to examine the proof there is and find ways to expand our working knowledge of it. There are plenty of people who have experienced obe's, clairvoyance, precognition, and other "psychic" phenomena. Enough that it's unconscionable to me that the broader "scientific community" avoids it all together.. What I hear is that if we can't detect these phenomena through natural methods, then it doesn't exist.. but that's like trying to catch air in a net..

There are plenty of people with claims of those type of experiences. If you have documentation of people actually having had them, do feel free to share. As far as I'm aware, there is any number of such rumors, often altered tales much different from what ever events transpired, and a slightly smaller number of tests conducted with people who make such claims, that exclusively fail to show any substance to the claims. It is only being avoided after so many resources were wasted on taking the claims seriously. Like if after half a million times a test returns negative, one must ask oneself if one might not have better things to do than try the half a million and first time, just to be sure.
As for the existence of such things, well, to put it the way you did, nobody I know is saying that. If however natural methods fail to show any indication that the phenomenon claimed occurs in nature, then we have no basis to believe that it does. And if the claims is so constructed as to predict indication within measurable margins and the prediction keeps failing in 100% of the attempts, then one is perfectly reasonable in not only not accepting the notion that the claimed thing occurs in nature, but in rejecting it, too. This is not a claim about what is or isn't real, it's about what is or isn't reasonable to believe given the results we keep gathering.

I've had personal experiences with telekinesis. I did a simple experiment.. but besides having things that could pick up the effects of my aura on my body. The main point of the experiment was to see the minds ability to control and project these effects..

Very good. I'm certain if you can replicate your results consistently under controlled conditions, any number of institutions would be happy to fund further research into this new hitherto unknown occurrence and how it can be best employed to save and improve lives. I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress and the good it'll serve yourself and mankind more broadly.

Uzima Moto wrote: What I'm trying to get my more skeptical Jedi to understand is there are aspects of The Force that can't be found on electromagnetic spectrum. The energy most are referring to only influences itself and whatever is connected to it. You'll never register it on a scale. Only see the effects on the object of focus..

How is that different from it not being there at all, though? Surely, when of any thing in the world we say that it "exists", we mean that it engages in some kind of interaction we are able to detect. Sometimes it is as simple as our ability to see it, i.e. it interacts with our eyes (by sending light out) such that we can. Sometimes it is more subtle, like when a stove heats the water and we eventually see it boil, though we never saw any of the infrared light transmitted to the water. Sometimes we can barely detect an effect at all be it not for instruments sensitive enough. But if something affects nothing, then its presence is literally indistinguishable from its absence. If the Force is actually in any meaningful way a part of the world we are another part of, then surely we can only tell that by detecting how it affects things. If it only influences itself and manifests in no other detectable way, how is that different from it not being there at all? And how is anyone allegedly feeling it, if it interacts in no feelable way?

Your thoughts create impressions on your body's nervous system. Which sends signals for the body to respond in kind.. "Lift arm, look left" your body takes cue from you. It doesn't move autonomously..

My agreement here is partial and hesitant. Yes, your mind and body affect each other. What I disagree with is that they are separable. Your mind is as much a produce of your body as the lifting of you arm is. Your brain is running a (admittedly complicated) process we are happy to summarize colloquially as just "the mind" and a lot of the arm lifting your body performs comes from the obedience of particular commands generated by your brain during that process. Whether that counts for autonomousness of your body or not I'm happy to leave to the philosophers to discuss, but if what we know about how stuff works is any good at all then there seems to be no sense in which it makes any to conceive of some kind of ghost in the machine, sitting in control of it.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+second+brain&view=detail&mid=8ABCD50600BDE83EF4CA8ABCD50600BDE83EF4CA&FORM=VRRTAP


I’m not saying I agree one hundred percent with every idea out there but there are people and groups who see things differently- away from tests and labs and explanations. Just food for thought. You may post a explanation of disapproval or even combat against the validity of things like this but you can argue for and against anything now a days - sit in a 9 the grade debate class any where and you will see this in action.

Uzima Moto wrote: Our thoughts, reflexes, and instincts come from the mind. Our ethereal bodies impress upon the ethereal energy of our bioelectric field. One of the easiest "materials" to manipulate due to a "lighter" signature in the ethereal.

I felt the need to expand on this point after rereading my post. Just for some clarification.

There is a historical study of these ideas. Alchemy being one of a good number, mostly Eastern. In Alchemy specifically, the different ethereal bodies of inanimate matter were called "elementals". The theory of being able to change the ethereal and atomic body of one material to another. Lead to the idea of changing lead into gold. Easier said than done, I'm afraid.. in a moral sense, I would be careful of just using it all over the place to fix everything. For a few reasons..

So, there are a few things I've come to learn that are needed to at least understand the idea of how this would actually work.. in theory..

One, maybe most important, is that the ethereal doesn't exist as a separate layer from matter. It's actually the opposite. It's like every atom has an ethereal body according to its nature.. or to be really understood. Every signature of elemental ethereal energy manifests physically as separate elemental atomic structures. Both being extensions of a deeper source. Constituting an ocean of Living Energy..
Every material has a nature according to the elemental signature of its ethereal energy. Some elemental signatures being more "dense" than others, yet more fluid in its ability to change its phase or structure than while in the physical phase..

Second, "ethereal" energy is semi-conscious. In the atomic state, you could say that consciousness falls asleep to a degree. There are several "layers" , or phases, to what's known as the Ethereal. Each less conscious than the phase before it. In the physical state, ethereal energy is sort of sleep walking. Until it begins to organize. The more complex, the more developed, becoming more atuned to the higher phases of the Ethereal, and constitutes its own body.. In those "higher" phases, the conscious aspect is too active to have complexity beyond certain archetypical structures. Thereby getting what is known as dimensional constructs. The basis of all physical constructs. The essence of the "archetype of solidarity" in the Ethereal is the source of solidity, more solid elementals, and consolidation into bodies.. like a tree, branching out from conscious constructs to physical manifestations.. constructs inhabiting all parts..

Lastly, and equally as important as the first. The Ethereal may change from one phase to the next, but the constructs of each phase cannot "crossover" to another. Meaning, the archetype of Death (deconstruction of a body) cannot manifest as a physical construct in and of itself. Its nature acts against the natures of other archetypes, affecting their structures. The "gods" are constantly at war.
When we die our consciousness leaves the physical behind. The atoms aren't dead. They continue to operate as normal. The body is just deconstructed and becomes dust. Our ethereal bodies continue on, going through its own sort of deconstruction.