A question of The Force.

My faith is based in a real inspection of my experience. I've always been that way. I've done a few experiments with it that someone else can repeat.

Example, I had my first experience with astral projection when I was around 10 years old. I was on a road trip with family. I had fallen asleep and got caught in a sleep paralysis. It wasn't my first time with that lol. I even had a method of wiggling my toe to make me snap back. This time was different. I couldn't shake it. I was wiggling half my foot I think, nothing..

I couldn't call out, move, nothing was working. Then the panic wanted to set in after awhile. I thought I was trapped, or that I could even die. All of a sudden the scenery caught my attention. It was familiar for some reason. Then it hit me. "We're outside of town! We're here!".. Surprised me so much that it snapped me back. There we were, the sign was right down the road. What surprised me was that I could see where we were.. but it wasn't for a few years before I actually figured out how to project..

Now, I had never heard of astral projection. Wouldn't til I was a junior in high school. So, somehow I figured that if I could get really tired but keep my mind focused on a single cohesive train of thought. As I slipped into my sleep, my mind would continue as if it was awake.. bam, I'm looking at myself on the couch..
That didn't convince me though. I could justbe imagining what I last saw with what I might expect to see. I came up with a game to test it. I would try to see who's car would be pulling in to park. The parking was right in front of our balcony. I really didn't know who would pull up at what times. I never gave it much thought, I was 13.

I would go to sleep at night. Intent on projecting. When the lights pulled up. I would look outside. See it, then wake up to confirm what I saw. Each time it worked. I did multiple cars every session. I tried to stay skeptical so my mind would make its own thought-forms... like how you can control your dreams sometimes.. The results had me astonished. I couldn't believe it, but it was real.. Eventually, I would go on to adventure further out ourapartment.. but that's when I learned how real it can be.. when you're staring down a black mass that's barking back. Then it pursues you so fast that contact seems almost instantaneous. It was a terror I had NEVER experienced nor ever would again in my life. Even scared the nightmares out of me lol

My faith comes from experiences I studied and looked deep into.. I didn't conjure up this stuff in my head. As I would find later. I wasn't the only one having those experiences. The fact that you so easily claim that there's been no evidence or study goes against a nearly 10,000 year old tradition. It goes back to ancient Egypt and China. I'm probably assuming correctly that you haven't looked hard enough. Especially if you expect someone to just present you with some physical evidence of non-physical substances.. we're talking energy that doesn't resonate like matter.. which is energy also..

You are right 40 years of intense spiritual study, a degree in astrophysics and the attainment of high positions in two formal pagan traditions is probably not long enough or deep enough exploration for me to make any judgements lol.

Sorry but subjective personal assertions are not enough for me to accept your extraordinary claims as true. Would you believe me if I told you I have an invisible unicorn that keep in my garage? And this unicorn does not interact with reality in any conventional way so you wont be able to detect it but I have learned a secret 10,000 year old sumarian process that has been lost to the ages that has taught me how to interact with it.

In any case if you are truly capable of these amazing things you say you are then I encourage you to take James Randy's test. He has 1 million dollars as a prize for anyone that can prove they possess paranormal abilities. Think of it, that much money could do amazing things for Jedi such as yourself.

Lol I'm not the only one. There are folks who can share that experience..

Apparently there are old little societies that have been doing this for a long time. Also regular private practitioners. All over the place really. It's in all kinds of ancient texts. I can't understand how you couldn't at least acknowledge that when I mentioned it before.. or where you got your thoughts on Abraham's Heaven.. given your 40 year history..

I'm kinda disappointed now otc lol

What's really funny though is that it's entirely possible for you to have an imaginary unicorn that didn't interact with the physical.. that would be creating a thought-form. It probably wouldn't do much though. That's part of lucid dreaming also, dream-bending lol.. The opposite mindset of what you would want to have if you're projecting.

I don't think anyone that could take the challenge would do it.. for a few reasons.. It's funny to me, personally.. looking for the right things in the wrong places lol

The Force is very real and very subtle.. and also powerful.. It's sort of a dichotomy to it.. but more like the opposite ends of two magnets.. there is also very real, dark, and destructive evil that exists.. but The Light, The Force, works towards harmony.. balance, growth, improvement, order, etc..

In a lot of ways, it's impossible to even use words to accurately describe it. It can't be created nor destroyed. It just is and always has been.. creating and recreating..

Uzima Moto wrote: I don't think anyone that could take the challenge would do it.. for a few reasons.. It's funny to me, personally.. looking for the right things in the wrong places lol

I wonder why so many people assert they can base supernatural powers in science but when this challenge is issued to test under that basis it is always met with excuses as to why it cant be done... I think were done here.

Zanthan Storm wrote: We speak of God in this world; many of us have see the works of God through the Force. For myself I see the Holy Spirit as The Living Force because it is within us all. Here is my question to you.

Have you witnessed an act of The Force?
If so, tell us about it. Did it act through you?

Back to the original question:


I am not a Christian by any means. I do have virtue stemmed and from examples of great Christian people and their examples of love and faith and their application of their freedoms their belief has given them. I call the Force most nothing I can’t in any way shape or form claim to be by me. I have many definitions of the Force and often am thankful for other people’s Force. That being said...
I’ve notice the reciprocation of good planting in many ways shapes and forms. Often , I’ve seen the seek for virtue to find me meeting people I would never normally have thought , I can learn somthing from them. Over time ( my) the Force has brought people into my path who teste not only as far as action in moments of anger and forgiveness but in moments of true experience and validation... in other words - I meet people who ask me “ are you for real” then people who ask me “ dude , your for real.” To me, this is the Force manifesting obvious pathways for me. It’d my goal to always make new and strengthen old connections and thebForce that drives often seems to put into place that which I some how need.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: I don't think anyone that could take the challenge would do it.. for a few reasons.. It's funny to me, personally.. looking for the right things in the wrong places lol

I wonder why so many people assert they can base supernatural powers in science but when this challenge is issued to test under that basis it is always met with excuses as to why it cant be done... I think were done here.

Didn't say couldn't, big difference. I wouldn't just to let them sit there in their simplistic thinking personally lol.. it would tickle me to no end lmao

Them: "Show me astral energy on my microscope!"
Me: "I don't think you get how this works lol"

To call it vibrational is an understatement.. but your going to have a hard time measuring something that resonates on a more subtle level than your testing materials.. like trying to catch water with a net lol..

The lack of perception on his part is another reason some folks wouldn't take the challenge..
"Oh, are you so certain? Have you looked from all possible angles? What makes you think they would need or even want your money to begin with? Everybody isn't that simple minded, you know..
Shame, how can you not see the obvious?"

Qi, Prana, Spirit, Ether.. there all parts of the same whole.. that's been my experience. Through me, and in the world around me. "Lift a rock and you will find me" as a certain Hebrew prophet was credited with saying..

I don't see my or yours, but ours.. It belongs to us and we to it..

A son's inheritance rightfully belongs to him, but only because he belongs to his father..

..and we are children of this Living Light-Energy..

That's my gnosis, my knowing by experiencing. Not just hear-say or written word..

Which makes me kind of sad for Kyrin.. skepticism is good in moderation. However, she's outright dismissive.. and belligerently so.. but her approach, rebuttal, and general presumption of the intellectual high ground makes me think she's done more ego building than self-mastery.. but, like a mule at a millstone. When she finally stops and look at herself she'll see just how far she's come..

Uzima Moto wrote: Which makes me kind of sad for Kyrin.. skepticism is good in moderation. However, she's outright dismissive.. and belligerently so.. but her approach, rebuttal, and general presumption of the intellectual high ground makes me think she's done more ego building than self-mastery.. but, like a mule at a millstone. When she finally stops and look at herself she'll see just how far she's come..

Do not feel sad for me. Skepticism only works not in moderation but when applied universally. Dismission is a hallmark of skepticism. Show me something impressive based on evidence and I will pay attention. Fail to do this and i will dismiss you. You say well you dont know how this works... nice assertion... so either prove a process in which it does work or GTFO. Cuz claims need foundation or they are baseless

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: Which makes me kind of sad for Kyrin.. skepticism is good in moderation. However, she's outright dismissive.. and belligerently so.. but her approach, rebuttal, and general presumption of the intellectual high ground makes me think she's done more ego building than self-mastery.. but, like a mule at a millstone. When she finally stops and look at herself she'll see just how far she's come..

Do not feel sad for me. Skepticism only works not in moderation but when applied universally. Dismission is a hallmark of skepticism. Show me something impressive based on evidence and I will pay attention. Fail to do this and i will dismiss you. You say well you dont know how this works... nice assertion... so either prove a process in which it does work or GTFO. Cuz claims need foundation or they are baseless

Using the wrong tool for a job is never a good idea. It explains why there is no scientific evidence. The Force is understood by many (most?) Jedi to be experienced through the mind/body complex which creates our perception of awareness, perhaps even being a state of perception itself, and so as something which seemingly cannot be measured by other means we just have to wait for science to catch up. Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. So, as has been explained many times to you at this Temple, that it lacks any scientific evidence is not a valid or relevant criticism in this case. This is not an excuse, but rather an invitation to develop the tools and techniques to further the scientific field. Just because you don't experience something does not mean others don't. In the interests of speeding up the mouse wheel that is this old conversation you seem to like to have; in the past from this point you usually go to classifying it as hallucination or delusion and querying the utility of such a thing in practical reality and calling it a waste of time. And in the past my answer was always that is what Jediism is to many, developing tools and techniques specifically so they do provide advantage and utility. You usually drop it at that point, but I thought I'd save a few pages of the same old stuff by skipping to there to see if you have any new replies or perspectives that might actually be relevant to what others are saying?

Adder wrote: ... as something which seemingly cannot be measured by other means we just have to wait for science to catch up. Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. So, as has been explained many times to you at this Temple, that it lacks any scientific evidence is not a valid or relevant criticism in this case. This is not an excuse, but rather an invitation to develop the tools and techniques to further the scientific field.

Right, and what do we do in the meantime, then? Just speculate about it and believe blindly what ever wild ideas we can make up about it? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is absence of a justification to believe. Of course we can believe anyway, but it is then not the skeptic's fault if they point out that the belief is unfounded and/or unreasonable.
But of course it is worse than that, because we do have evidence of absence. You see, the absence of evidence is only neutral if the statement proposed does not imply evidence within the observable range. If the thing claimed is to have any power sufficient to generate evidene of its presence within any range of observation we can investigate, then the absence of any trace of that power is extremely strong disconfirmation of the claimed thing's presence. It's like with the soul or the untapped power of the mind more recently. If it is out there, it matters almost as little as not at all, and if it actually is to have any kind of noteworthy impact, then we would have detected it by now.

Just because you don't experience something does not mean others don't.

You are right, it doesn't. What would, though? For that matter, what sort of confirmation would it take to say that others do experience the claimed thing? If someone experiences a blimp in the sky, I can stand beside them and look the same direction. Maybe I'd even be content with reviewing a photo they make of it. That wouldn't confirm that they are seeing it, but at least I could have some kind of reasonable expectation that they might, assuming some commonalities between us. If they are blind, of course, then the chances of them seeing the blimp are rather slim, even if I can confirm its presence to within as much as I trust my own senses. If I am blind and they can see, then my inability to spot the blimp is of course no proof that they cannot. Would I however have any reason to believe that they can? Well, sure, if others have confirmed the fortitude of their eyesight and if they have been honest about such trivial things with me in the past, maybe I do. So what happens if both of us are blind, and they claim to be experiencing a blimp in the sky? Just because I cannot experience doesn't mean that they cannot. That they are blind also doesn't, they say, for it is a spiritual blimp, one that signals them personally about its location. What makes it reasonable for me to believe that they are experiencing the blimp? I don't want to call them a liar. Maybe they are actually having some experience, I wouldn't know. But they are claiming that there is a blimp there and they have no means of demonstrating that what they are experiencing is it, nor a way to transfer their experience to me like the seeing friend did with the photo. I don't have to (though I may well) doubt their sincerity, but I have every reason to doubt their correctness, and it is not the skeptic's fault that the claim is so spurious.

Also - please remember that this is in the Abrahamic faith section. As discussions happens often in many places here - it is not our practice here to tell others to Shut the anything up and it is against our rules ...

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Post what you think is acceptable for an 8 year old to read (be it your own child or another) as this is in fact a family, and public, forum after all. If in doubt, leave it out.

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Gisteron wrote:

Adder wrote: ... as something which seemingly cannot be measured by other means we just have to wait for science to catch up. Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. So, as has been explained many times to you at this Temple, that it lacks any scientific evidence is not a valid or relevant criticism in this case. This is not an excuse, but rather an invitation to develop the tools and techniques to further the scientific field.

Right, and what do we do in the meantime, then? Just speculate about it and believe blindly what ever wild ideas we can make up about it? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is absence of a justification to believe. Of course we can believe anyway, but it is then not the skeptic's fault if they point out that the belief is unfounded and/or unreasonable.
But of course it is worse than that, because we do have evidence of absence. You see, the absence of evidence is only neutral if the statement proposed does not imply evidence within the observable range. If the thing claimed is to have any power sufficient to generate evidene of its presence within any range of observation we can investigate, then the absence of any trace of that power is extremely strong disconfirmation of the claimed thing's presence. It's like with the soul or the untapped power of the mind more recently. If it is out there, it matters almost as little as not at all, and if it actually is to have any kind of noteworthy impact, then we would have detected it by now..

Incorrect, the study of the mind is in dire need of tools to bridge subjective knowledge into objective knowledge and so in the meantime we wok with what we can, albeit mostly mental it seemingly has immense power. You seem not to have understood my first 3 sentences, and so missed my point entirely. The toys called scientific instrumentation dont yet touch the one we each are. Simply put, its a different field of study.

You are right, Adder, I do not understand what you are saying. We seem to agree that there is no evidence for the thing claimed. I think that makes it unreasonable to believe it. Are you saying that it is unreasonable to ask for any? Because that's what this sounds like. It sounds like you are saying that there is this category of claims about how the natural world works that should - at least for the time being - be excempt from critical analysis or skeptical inquiry. I have not the silghtest idea why anyone would say such a thing but it keeps happening, and for some obscure reason, only for claims that would fail any such scrutiny.

Gisteron wrote: You are right, Adder, I do not understand what you are saying. We seem to agree that there is no evidence for the thing claimed. I think that makes it unreasonable to believe it. Are you saying that it is unreasonable to ask for any? Because that's what this sounds like. It sounds like you are saying that there is this category of claims about how the natural world works that should - at least for the time being - be excempt from critical analysis or skeptical inquiry. I have not the silghtest idea why anyone would say such a thing but it keeps happening, and for some obscure reason, only for claims that would fail any such scrutiny.

Nobody I know is saying that. What I usually hear is people not wanting to examine the proof there is and find ways to expand our working knowledge of it. There are plenty of people who have experienced obe's, clairvoyance, precognition, and other "psychic" phenomena. Enough that it's unconscionable to me that the broader "scientific community" avoids it all together.. What I hear is that if we can't detect these phenomena through natural methods, then it doesn't exist.. but that's like trying to catch air in a net..

I've had personal experiences with telekinesis. I did a simple experiment.. but besides having things that could pick up the effects of my aura on my body. The main point of the experiment was to see the minds ability to control and project these effects..

Adder wrote: Using the wrong tool for a job is never a good idea. It explains why there is no scientific evidence. The Force is understood by many (most?) Jedi to be experienced through the mind/body complex which creates our perception of awareness, perhaps even being a state of perception itself, and so as something which seemingly cannot be measured by other means we just have to wait for science to catch up.

What exactly is this mind/body complex you are speaking of? Can you define that and if so, can you show that definition is viable? How exactly does it create our perception of awareness? How is it alone, used to “measure” this proposition of The Force you put forward and what data can be gleaned from this measurement?

You say science does not have the tools to explore this and then you proceed to define a tool that can be used to explore this concept. So which is it? Is there a tool or not?

Adder wrote: Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. So, as has been explained many times to you at this Temple, that it lacks any scientific evidence is not a valid or relevant criticism in this case.

Absence of evidence also does not mean we just get to make up whatever mumbo jumbo we want to make up and claim it as truth and then demand that tools need to be created in order to prove this mumbo jumbo. This has been explained to you just as many times at this temple. In fact your whole process is backwards. You don’t get to make a conclusion and then build a tool to show the conclusion. This is called confirmation bias. So throwing out your logical fallacy does make my criticism relevant.

Adder wrote: This is not an excuse, but rather an invitation to develop the tools and techniques to further the scientific field.

Actually this is the very definition of an excuse. You make a conclusion and then invite me to create a tool to confirm your conclusion??!! Why would I or anyone else ever conceivably do this? It does not matter if it’s scientifically relevant or not. It’s like coming to me and telling me the earth is hollow. And when I question that conclusion you tell me it’s simple, all I have to do is make a tool to prove that! Well I’m sorry but the burden of proof is not on me, it’s on you. You have to show me it’s hollow, not the other way around.

Adder wrote: Just because you don't experience something does not mean others don't. In the interests of speeding up the mouse wheel that is this old conversation you seem to like to have; in the past from this point you usually go to classifying it as hallucination or delusion and querying the utility of such a thing in practical reality and calling it a waste of time. And in the past my answer was always that is what Jediism is to many, developing tools and techniques specifically so they do provide advantage and utility. You usually drop it at that point, but I thought I'd save a few pages of the same old stuff by skipping to there to see if you have any new replies or perspectives that might actually be relevant to what others are saying?

I’m so appreciative adder, that you have taken the time to speed this up for me. My god what a magnanimous person you are for doing this! So appreciative… really I am. You are right of course, some experience things others do not. But beyond that, you can say nothing. Just because some experience things others do not does not prove they are real and if you can’t show those experiences to others in a coherent manner then you can’t even come to any conclusions about them. This means if you can’t show a reproducible phenomena given a specific set of conditions or even a reproducible effect of that phenomena then you really have only a question, not a conclusion. And to take that question and derive a conclusion is breakdown in logic and critical thinking.


Now if you come to me and say, I experienced something and I don’t know what it was but I would like to discuss it, then we can have a conversation. This is having an open mind. But if you come to me and you say I experienced something and it was definitely an energy source that creates and connects all life but can’t be found on the electromagnetic scale or reproduce any consistent effects but I just believe it can’t be anything other than this thing I shall call the Force, well then you have a closed mind and there is nothing intellectually for us to discuss.

This is where the lines are crossed over in this Topic. This Topic is in a Faith - Abarhamic Studies Section not a Debate or discussion section for Scientific Studies or Beliefs. Here at TOTJO, NO ONE is to tromp on anyone's Beliefs by some of the canter here. If you wish to discuss ones Scientific understandings or Thoughts take it out of this forum Topic. Each individual here has the rights to believe as they do, if it is a Faith based, so be it and NO ONE is to get out of line in that. Stick to the Section for which this Topic was brought into the Forum. Anything outside of a Topic's ideals is disrespectful, destruction of ones personal faith, engaging in attacking ones own beliefs, that within the Temples Forums is unacceptable by any means.

If you are not a Follower of a Faith Base, Do not challenge anyone else that does in this Forum Section!!

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Now if you come to me and say, I experienced something and I don’t know what it was but I would like to discuss it, then we can have a conversation. This is having an open mind. But if you come to me and you say I experienced something and it was definitely an energy source that creates and connects all life but can’t be found on the electromagnetic scale or reproduce any consistent effects but I just believe it can’t be anything other than this thing I shall call the Force, well then you have a closed mind and there is nothing intellectually for us to discuss.

What I'm trying to get my more skeptical Jedi to understand is there are aspects of The Force that can't be found on electromagnetic spectrum. The energy most are referring to only influences itself and whatever is connected to it. You'll never register it on a scale. Only see the effects on the object of focus..

Your thoughts create impressions on your body's nervous system. Which sends signals for the body to respond in kind.. "Lift arm, look left" your body takes cue from you. It doesn't move autonomously..

Uzima Moto wrote:
What I'm trying to get my more skeptical Jedi to understand is there are aspects of The Force that can't be found on electromagnetic spectrum. The energy most are referring to only influences itself and whatever is connected to it. You'll never register it on a scale. Only see the effects on the object of focus..

Your thoughts create impressions on your body's nervous system. Which sends signals for the body to respond in kind.. "Lift arm, look left" your body takes cue from you. It doesn't move autonomously..

So by your understanding and definitions are you saying that portions of The Force are on the magnetic spectrum? If so how do those interact with reality? by this Im asking what effects on what objects of focus are present?

So my impression of your map of the body is one in which mind or spirit or soul is separate than body, a distinct manifestation that continues on after the bodies death and is responsible for the animation of the physical body. You have also told me that I have misunderstood your concept of "heaven". Can you describe to me what makes you believe that "mind" is separate from body and what is your concept of The Force or Heaven that it returns to upon physical death? Your description hints at the fact that the body will not move without the spirit to manipulate it - that "you" or "self" is not the body. So how did you come to this conclusion that we are not our bodies but instead it consists of two separate things? And by what mechanism or process does the mind or soul use to manipulate or otherwise influence the body to be animated?