The American gun Laws.....can it remain as it is?

What is the point in having a gun? So, your scared that your family will get targeted, then you need to protect. well if guns weren't allowed, then it wouldn't be such a big deal, cause where is the big threat? ok, knives and baseball bats are an issue, but that only means that there is one more weapon added to the violence. And, by having a gun, and using it in defence, you could hurt someone, kill them. i know, that's the point in defence, but then your going to go down for murder. and then there is the part where most Americans can get their hands on a gun if they want. sorry if my facts are wrong, as I don't know much about it, but anyone can walk into a gun shop, buy the weapon, then go shoot people, like that shooting at that school. Innocent children, and adults, murdered because it was that easy. if the guy couldn't get a gun, then there would have been less death in that school. a bat or knife, someone could have disarmed him, or managed to block him. but a gun can be shot from a distance. Now please, tell me, why do Americans have the law that allows them to have guns?

You know after the nearly 20 pages of stuff here, i have noticed a trend, it's a bunch of brits telling Americans what Americans don't need....

Perhaps an outside perspective is needed to help illuminate this dark path we now tread.

Yea... good luck with that.

Anyway, it all boils down to this. Be the change you want to see. Unless there is a forced door to door disarm, (which would lead to open rebellion) all this is farting in the wind and real change will come from people winning over hearts and minds.

Ren, you are so narrow minded. It's apparent you don't like Americans. Fine. I try and view both sides and tell you mine, but you can't even be bothered to hear it.

Americans shove it in everyone's faces??? You're a Frenchman telling Americans how they should run their country. :dry: Hypocrite.

Not everyone thinks the same and that's a good thing. The British and French don't like guns? Great, keep living without them. That's fine. I'm an American (and I'm not ashamed of it, although in this day and age it's thrown around like a dirty word) and I love the fact that we can live in a country where options are available. We need more, not less freedoms.

All I can see is that the people who try to take them away, are people who are either ignorant and act out of fear or they're so power crazed that they have to have everything their way. Which one are you?

Wendaline wrote: All I can see is that the people who try to take them away, are people who are either ignorant and act out of fear or they're so power crazed that they have to have everything their way.

I'm not really getting into this discussion, but I'm just finding myself thinking that sounds a little unfair...

There are plenty of people within the USA who want either moderate or total gun control put in place, and they would probably say exactly the same (ignorant, acting out of fear, power-crazed) about you and the pro-gun advocates.

I'm not saying that's you, of course...it's just that you accuse Ren of being narrow-minded, but if that's really all you can see, then you might be slightly guilty of the same...

I say this in a friendly way, I hope you realise

____________________________________

Here are thoughts of mine, not to any one person in particular:

I've kept out of this discussion myself because in the past these gun threads have caused me to get angry and frustrated, and I've had to take a good hard look at myself...

Of course, it's good when we can learn from threads in this way.

But learn, and then move forwards - it's so easy to get stuck in a repetitive loop of frustration and resentment, and seeing as this thread is now 18 pages long, I'd hazard a guess that that is partly what has happened...

It's okay to disagree, honest...

When I exit a thread and I continue to feel frustrated afterwards, I know I've taken it too personally.

Everyone is entitled to their view, and everyone's view is equally valid...

It's how we choose to let those views affect us that determines whether disagreements turn bitter or whether they are conducted in a spirit of mutual growth and understanding...

*Shut up now V* :laugh:

Leagally obtained guns and registered gun owners don't commit these crimes just as prescription drugs are not the cause of street violence. It's the illeagle drug and gun sales activity that is the root of these crimes. Find and inhibitig the unregulated sources of drugs and guns and crime will change. It won"t go away. It will just find something else to suit their crime means. Just as drugs have always been available on the street so will guns.

V-Tog wrote:

Wendaline wrote: All I can see is that the people who try to take them away, are people who are either ignorant and act out of fear or they're so power crazed that they have to have everything their way.

I'm not really getting into this discussion, but I'm just finding myself thinking that sounds a little unfair...

There are plenty of people within the USA who want either moderate or total gun control put in place, and they would probably say exactly the same (ignorant, acting out of fear, power-crazed) about you and the pro-gun advocates.

I'm not saying that's you, of course...it's just that you accuse Ren of being narrow-minded, but if that's really all you can see, then you might be slightly guilty of the same...

I say this in a friendly way, I hope you realise

Of course I am. But did you read the post before that? I did try and see his point of view. I even told him it was great that he lived in a county he could feel safe in. I told him I did the same thing, and offered up a personal story to try and explain my side (not that I expected him to agree). But all he can do is insult Americans, and because I am one, me. Why not say something about that? :huh: It's okay to use backhanded insults, but not direct ones?

But you're right. It should be a civil argument. And pointing out hypocrisy is part of that (as you did it to me). As to the part you quoted of mine:

I am not trying to take anyones freedoms away. I don't want to dictate anybodies life but my own. I certainly don't want to dictate a country that's not even my own.

My argument is about freedom. Not guns. When people take away freedoms because of what they fear, because of what the news fears, or because of what their governement fears, then they are not thinking rationally. Who benefits from gun control? Who benefits from restricting freedom?

Who pays for it? Who's life suffers from it? Losing freedoms, is more than just taking away an object. It's taking away people's lives, their jobs, their hobbies, their wealth, their memories. It's asking them to stop living their life and live a new and more restrictive one all so some people, not even all the people, can feel safe. So now we have less freedom (and money) but with the same amount of fear, murder, and mayhem as before. How does that make any sense?

Maybe it's different for people living in England or other non-gun countries because you didn't grow up with the same freedoms/laws, but I know people who will lose everything if a gun ban were to actually happen. They would lose their business and their home. Our enitre economy would suffer. I love my neighbors and my country and I want it to do well. I want everyone's country to do well, but I'm not going to argue English or French politics because I don't know. I don't live there, I don't work there, I can't possibly know what works best in other countries, but I do know what I like and what I want to see in mine.

Wendaline wrote: all he can do is insult Americans, and because I am one, me. Why not say something about that? :huh: It's okay to use backhanded insults, but not direct ones?

I wasn't telling you off or anything...as I say, everyone is entitled to their view, that includes you

It wasn't really about Ren, I know he's being one-sided (he is Ren, after all :laugh: ) but he's not the only one who is...this topic always seems to bring out the stubbornness in everyone. Hence why I prefer to mainly stick to observing than participating!

That said, I do find myself questioning this:

Wendaline wrote: My argument is about freedom. Not guns. When people take away freedoms because of what they fear, because of what the news fears, or because of what their governement fears, then they are not thinking rationally. Who benefits from gun control? Who benefits from restricting freedom?

I understand that gun-control would in one sense be a restriction of freedom.

But are we always entitled to freedom?

Isn't any rule or law a restriction of freedom? Do we not then need some restrictions of freedom in place in order for society to function?

Therefore, surely the argument is about guns, because if the right to freedom is dependent upon the particular case, then the subject of the case is what becomes important...in this instance being guns...

Wendaline wrote: Ren, you are so narrow minded. It's apparent you don't like Americans. Fine. I try and view both sides and tell you mine, but you can't even be bothered to hear it.

Americans shove it in everyone's faces??? You're a Frenchman telling Americans how they should run their country. :dry: Hypocrite.

Not everyone thinks the same and that's a good thing. The British and French don't like guns? Great, keep living without them. That's fine. I'm an American (and I'm not ashamed of it, although in this day and age it's thrown around like a dirty word) and I love the fact that we can live in a country where options are available. We need more, not less freedoms.

All I can see is that the people who try to take them away, are people who are either ignorant and act out of fear or they're so power crazed that they have to have everything their way. Which one are you?

I don't tell anyone how to run their country. Well, some people. But they're not american at all. In fact I've said before in this thread that I thought it would be impossible for the US to safely ban guns without being completely merciless about it (along the lines of found in possession = life sentence no parole). Which I doubt would happen without some kind of civil war or coup.

But that's not the point. Your argument is that americans need guns to defend themselves and enforce their freedom, meaning they fear other americans would take their lives and freedom.

I stated I do not believe americans are more violent than non-americans. If you found this to be an insulting hateful rambling, then I apologize. I'd like all other americans I know @ totjo to know that no, I do not think you are violent.

As to shoving it in people's faces? yep. That's pretty much how you guys do it. You use your power to silence, influence, both politically and commercially. I've traveled, and I can tell, you're not making any friends. And that's why your country has no other choice to keep on shoving it on people's faces, and do it even more, the same way you have no other choice as individuals but to keep on arming yourselves.