The American gun Laws.....can it remain as it is?

Whyte Horse wrote: Sounds like someone has been drinking the kool-aid...

Thank you for taking the time to contribute to this discussion by posting such in depth contemplative thoughts on the subject matter

You have clearly made a well reasoned counter-argument...

If you have nothing to add, you have nothing to say

We don't feel everyone should have guns..just the ones that abide by the laws...felons can't own them legally, those with mental health issues can't own them legally , those with domestic violence charges can't own them legally....the problem is that they aquire them illegally...so we (the ones that can own them legally) are left with 2 options...either be defenseless, or own a gun legally to defend ourself....then there is the fact that citizens have the obligation to ensure that "big brother" doesn't over step the authority we grant him....

that last part, the obligation, is a fallacy.

think about all the civilians you know. even if each had an M 16 with unlimited ammo, which most wouldnt even want (for example, my mother has never fired a weapon, almost certainly never will), much less know how to use, trying to fight 'big brother' would be like sheep to the slaughter. the military uses weapons, command and control and technology so that any other military on the planet is at a pretty severe disadvantage these days, MUCH LESS a herd of untrained civilians with 5.56 mm pea shooters. i could personally take out that herd at over 500 yards if they got in the open. me alone, with a large enough caliber rifle, a zeroed scope and enough ammo.

so using that argument is...flawed, to say the least.

True...but how many soldiers will willingly fire upon friends and family....

I still remember the oath...to defend the constitution of the united states from all enemies, both foreign AND domestic....most civvies don't know that part of the military oath....so in theory the government could claim the civvies to be enemies instituting martial law....and the military is sworn to obey.... but how many would actually follow orders that involved turning guns on possible friends and family?

all of them. its your job. you wanna get court martialed and spend the rest of your life in the brig? ask bradley manning how thats working out for him.

also, you know as well as i do the vast propaganda machine that is the US govt would have everyone believe these are TERRORIST COMMIES BENT ON MURDER AND MAYHEM. you know it. so would the soldiers.

just this morning, i was reading some unclassed, heavily redacted FBI files (found at https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/549518-fbi-ows-documents.html) re: the occupy wall street movement. it was in conjunction with a posting entitled 'the fbi treated ows as a terrorist group', found at http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/12/fbi-treated-occupy-terrorist-group/60289/ ). birmingham alabama is listed in there, names redacted. i know for a fact that mine in one of them (still have a secret clearance til 2016).

im no terrorist. nor were any of the people i dealt with. but that doesnt matter if the government says otherwise.

My clearance expired years ago (was TS)....when I was in they told us 2 different things...the first "no ones ever been court martialed for following orders" which later someone did get court martialed for following what was considered a questionable order...the second thing they said was "if you receive a questionable order you can refuse it"....they created problems that way.....

The government certainly is full of propaganda masters, but I would hope that some people could spot it...

Then again those that did would immediately be labeled as "conspiracy nuts"....

Like how there has suddenly been an increase in shootings using AR's...the fire fighters in upstate new york and the cops in clearwater fl....seems a bit too convenient that there's an upswing in AR shootings and the shooters commit suicide....

Desolous wrote: that last part, the obligation, is a fallacy.

think about all the civilians you know. even if each had an M 16 with unlimited ammo, which most wouldnt even want (for example, my mother has never fired a weapon, almost certainly never will), much less know how to use, trying to fight 'big brother' would be like sheep to the slaughter. the military uses weapons, command and control and technology so that any other military on the planet is at a pretty severe disadvantage these days, MUCH LESS a herd of untrained civilians with 5.56 mm pea shooters. i could personally take out that herd at over 500 yards if they got in the open. me alone, with a large enough caliber rifle, a zeroed scope and enough ammo.

so using that argument is...flawed, to say the least.

The civilians/terrorist in Afghanistan seem to be giving US Troops a hard time.

yeah my mil clearance expired, but the civilian contractor one is still active. CAC cleared, but less fun tho.

man, i cant believe that if superior officer so and so issued order 245.1 to clear out that OWS terrorist cell with extreme prejudice that it wouldnt be obeyed. hell, when i was in, *I* would have obeyed it, and i am not the most order-taking kind of guy, clearly. soldiers are not often granted the time and leniency to chew over their orders, decide if it checks out with them, THEN hop to...IF they wanted to. my last CO would have flat decked me if i had questioned his orders. he was a big, volatile guy.

so you think the upswing in AR usage is...too convenient? hmm....interesting premise!

RyuJin wrote: ...the fire fighters in upstate new york ...

Thar's near where I live, 10 miles or so. The guy went to prison for 17 years for killing his 92 yr old grandmother with a hammer and got released. Who knows how that happened. He moved into the house next to where his grandmother lived. That's a little creepy.

He could not legally obtain a gun. This is being investigated right now. The other very real crime here is how he got the gun and that needs to be addresses.

Rickie The Grey wrote: The civilians/terrorist in Afghanistan seem to be giving US Troops a hard time.

they do, huh? numerically, they are not. what was the KIA count in vietnam? approx 50,000? how about WW2? WAAAY more.

i think it was master akkarin who mentioned that, numerically speaking, we live in the most peaceful time in history. where approx 4,000 KIA is 'a hard time' to most civvies. and no, i am not knocking it, tho it should be obvious i believe OIF/OEF were almost complletely pointless. NO soldiers death is pointless, NONE will go unhonored or unremembered. i have been to too many as a green suiter (honor guard) for that to ever happen.