Light or Shadow?

“Faith is about doing. You are how you act, not just how you believe.”
― Mitch Albom, Have a Little Faith: The Story of a Last Request

“In the end, people should be judged by their actions, since in the end, it was actions that defined everyone.”
― Nicholas Sparks

All know the way; few actually walk it. ~Bodhidharma

We could believe all sorts of things, but with out action to back them up they are ultimately just ideas and don't make you something. Does thinking about murder make you a murderer? Beliefs with out actions to back them up are as a christian might say "a fig tree that does not bear fruit"

Andy Spalding wrote:

“Faith is about doing. You are how you act, not just how you believe.”
― Mitch Albom, Have a Little Faith: The Story of a Last Request

“In the end, people should be judged by their actions, since in the end, it was actions that defined everyone.”
― Nicholas Sparks

All know the way; few actually walk it. ~Bodhidharma

We could believe all sorts of things, but with out action to back them up they are ultimately just ideas and don't make you something. Does thinking about murder make you a murderer? Beliefs with out actions to back them up are as a christian might say "a fig tree that does not bear fruit"

Not sure who you are directing to Andy, but since this is a "thinking" forum, and not a "doing" forum (which is difficult! ), I thought this was "why do we think we are (light, shadow, jedi)"...

I was just saying, I merely am...

I choose Jedi because from the ideals of being a Jedi, from what I see in the movies, and how I understand they would be to me if they existed, it is how I would want to be...

Beliefs and actions should be synonymous. Or we would hope. Practice what you preach or walking the Path of a Jedi. If someone believes in the moral values of the Bible I would hope they would follow those values and let those values guide their deeds and actions in their day to day life.

I don't understand how one can "act" the Force being everywhere. beliefs are beliefs, actions are actions. Two different words meaning two different things. Saying otherwise is trying to sound cool, which is unauthentic , which is the same as preaching one thing only to do the opposite.

There is such a thing as god-fearing christians who engage in idolatry (hello image-obsessed consumerist society), blasphemy, theft, murder, adultery..

I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post, William. I will do my best to respond.

Williamkaede wrote:

By quieting the ego you either poke the superego or you prod the id. Neither of those are healthy. You need a balance of the three to be a healthy human being.

I do not disagree with you on any particular points here. However, if you'll check back on what I originally wrote, I said "quiet the noise of the personality", not the personality itself. I was referring to the mental and emotional chatter of daily life, the writhing lack of presence that the conscious mind uses to perpetuate itself and that incidentally interrupts communion with the Living Force within. I was not suggesting that someone try to destroy or deny the ego itself. That will always cause a backlash of some kind. The ego is a necessary vessel that is used to transform the Force downward into the garden of manifestation. The vessel must be sublimated and evolved, not silenced in the sense of repressed or obliterated.

I agree that balance is necessary for many things, including harmony, beauty, grace, martial prowess, or mastery of any other kind. But therein lies the "problem" (or conundrum, if you prefer) with the Dark Side. By its nature, it is fueled and driven by passion and emotion, two things that actively create imbalance. Aside from the fact that it's initially easier, why do that? (Not a rhetorical question.)

Why choose a path where you are constantly engaged in a struggle between striving to be powerful vs. keeping your own passions from causing harm? So you can tell yourself that you're not weak? (And passions do inevitably cause harm if not constantly kept in check.) Passionate desire is a life-giving flame, but without the water of Mercy to temper it, it will always become a desiccating fire of cruelty that produces much smoke and little light.

Williamkaede wrote:

Peace is a lie, yes. But how do we define that? Peace can exist. Inner peace. Tranquility. The absence of conflict in your life if only temporarily. But conflict is inevitable. The trick with being Sith is that we don't ask worship or praise, but study and definition. Each Sith acolyte is asked to define the Sith Code for his or her self. When I say peace is a lie, I mean to say that conflict is inevitable.

I have respect for the degree to which you have obviously spent time thinking about the Sith Code. It is to your credit. I have no wish to engage in any "pissing contests", if you were referring to my posts thus far when you said that. But this thread is called "Light or Shadow?", so I'm assuming we came here to discuss.

I agree with you about learning. It has been a long belief of mine that you can learn something from anyone, if you know how to look and you have patience. My method is typically to shake the tree and see what falls out. It's how I learn quickest. So let me see if I can stir the pot a bit more.

Anyone who has ever experienced actual inner peace knows that it has nothing to do with absence of conflict in your life. They also know that the deeply penetrating nature of it is such that it can be experienced any time, even in the midst of vigorous activity or violence. What you are doing here is describing the surface of an eyeball as vision. Peace, as we experience it, does not last forever, no. It is not intended to.

Nonetheless, once you connect with the source of that peace within yourself, once you tap into the Living Force, you realize instantly and irrevocably that that deeper, joyful stillness was always there, and will always be there, no matter what is happening in the outer world of appearances. Its timelessness is palpable. You just couldn't hear it or feel it until you stopped everything and became still yourself. Then you will realize that there is no power that anyone could ever give you that you do not already have; that the stillness within is your true self, and you have no need of any feeling other than love to manifest that power in an automatically balanced way.

And ok, so conflict is inevitable. That's really no different than saying change is an inevitable part of life. Why focus on outer appearances of conflict when they are transient and the stillness within is forever?

Williamkaede wrote:

If you think the dark is destruction, sociopathy, corruption and evil, then you need to re-define the dark side and check your education. The darkness only corrupts those too weak to handle it.

Spoken like a true Sith! LOL You honor me, though, by your use of the word education. I admit that my level of awareness in this matter could be skewed. Or I could be misinterpreting my experiences of the Dark Side. But for the record, I did not say that the Dark Side is sociopathy, corruption, or evil -- those are human qualities. Nor is it only destruction. I simply said that the Dark Side leads eventually to those things, intentionally or not. Or at the very least it leads to ego inflation in dire need of popping.

The Dark Side is not evil, but it is most easily and often accessed by those people who are. This is because it does not require them to find peace; it even ridicules peace as a lie. Also, anyone can leverage their passions and emotions to achieve great power if they have no concern for how it will affect others. "To wear a ring of Power is to be alone." I am not saying that I assume any Dark Side user is a bad person, though. I am saying that the cost/benefit ratio doesn't really seem to add up in the long game; it usually proves to invite either imbalance or those possessed of moral turpitude, which spiritually does not make for good company.

Williamkaede wrote:

But alas... you can seek the truth and learn something, or defy the second line of the Jedi code and remain shrouded in ignorance. If you do the first, then you're a wiser man than many. If you do the second, you will always be at disadvantage when dealing with the dark side.

I have a hard time not smiling when anyone uses Alas in a meaningful sentence. Anyhow... I have sought the truth of the Dark Side, and in some ways (like this thread), I am continuing to. So in that respect, I beg your indulgence. My guiding principle has always been, "Let all obscurity flee before me." But obscurity can also mean darkness. There is a reason why it is called the Dark Side (instead of something else like the Purple Side or the Elephant Side).

Fraternally in the Force,
-David

I've went over this as best I could. Let me contribute a bit by saying The Path of the Jedi is not an easy one. Ultimately we are talking about taking an idea from a fictional universe and applying it to day to day life. What can we take from that path within a level of certainty?

The Force: An energy field that is both manipulable, sensible, and yet interconnected to all other energies if not the basis for all energy in existence.

Training To Improve: A Core Message of the movies is Luke and his Growth through hard work, training, discipline, and focus.

Skill in the Martial Forms: Again a Core Message from the movies as represented by the Lightsaber and the improvement of skill we see in Luke.

A Core Ideal: The Core Ideal presented in the movies is one of compassion, strength, dedication, determination, a never give up attitude and a will and drive to make a difference. This too we can practice.

Let us pull next from the expanded elements past these movies.

The Jedi Code: The Jedi Code is more than just a 4 line thing, it's a collection of maxims, a code of action (the 4-5line Anderson Code), as well as a Guideline for what defines a Jedi (The Skywalker Code). Is it so much that we can ask people if not to completely match this ideal then to at least STRIVE TO REACH THE IDEAL? Certainly people can, will, and do fail all the time. The movies are all about Failure. Luke Fails at the cave, Fails to Kill Vader, Fails to defend himself against the Emperor. However he does not simply say "This is to hard" or "I can't do this" or "This is unrealistic".

What I see a lot of in most of the community is a willingness to excuse weakness not because one can not strengthen beyond that weakness but because one is UNWILLING TO. However there are a SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS I hold in high regard because despite whatever comes their way they NEVER GIVE UP. That is part of the CORE of what a Jed is, as well as the strive to adhere to the Code, Creed, and Ideals.

Jestor wrote:

Disagreement does not mean dis-love... lol...

I agree; I usually dis-love even the people I agree with! Wait, what?

My expectation wasn't to start a fight or anything, but it takes a special group of people to be able to hold a tense discussion about hotly debated topics without acceptance of each other wearing thin sometimes. But I like the attitudes I've found here so far. Especially from the Sith brothers. Not a single one has tried to Force strangle me yet... j/k.

Jestor wrote:

Lax meaning? Maybe just different understandings... They lead to most disagreements...

I agree that's the case in most instances, but that's not what I was referring to here. I did not say "lax meaning". I'm sure that in the minds of everyone here, their meanings are relatively clear to themselves when they say whatever they end up saying. But the problem is the lax choice of words that they may employ to try to express their meaning.

They may use a verbal vehicle that is common or sounds cool but is unsuitable toward the people trying to receive their meaning understandingly, such as saying "Jedi" when what they really mean is "Force user" or "Force Realist" or even something like "Dark Jedi". They may have no intention in their meaning of referring to any of the things that are set up in this Order to denote and define a true modern Jedi: one who follows the Jedi Code, Creed, and Ideals, believes in the Force as more than a tool, and desires to be of service above all, preferably in ways that allow pursuing knowledge of the Force.

Such lax use of language as I meant is a seed of chaos and confusion. Granted, were we to go elsewhere, the components involved with defining Jedi might very well change. But while we are here, it behooves everyone to act like certain core words have specific meanings, like the word "Jedi". We can obfuscate all we want, beating around the bush, and say it means something different for everyone, but is that really true, in this place? If so, then why do we even bother having a 5-point Jedi Code, 16 Basic Teachings, or the Jedi Creed? Just give a YouTube link to a Rick Roll video instead. We can all become Discordians and worship the number 23.

Jestor wrote:

Then, people get all indignant, thinking that they are talking about different things... When really it is the same object seen from different perspectives.

The problem here is actually the opposite, that everyone thinks they're talking about the same thing, because they're using the same word, but they really mean very different things. And in some cases that entails meaning something diluted or sidetracked from the stated core principles of a Jedi as defined by the introductory documentation of this Order. Which again, is a matter of public record and not my opinion.

Jestor wrote:

This is why words are sloppy... Especially English...

While I admit that, in cases of mysterium, words are sometimes inadequate to describe them without inventing new ones, my overall experience with words has been that people don't give them enough credit. In fact, I would go so far as to say that in most cases, words are only as sloppy as the consciousness which is selecting and arranging them. Don't blame the tools, blame the craftsman.

Jestor wrote:

Just like the old facts, "earth is flat", "we will never fly", "that the Great Wall of China is the only human-made object visible from the Moon"

Those were not facts, they were simply commonly held suppositions that existed in the absence of direct experience. Experimental verification is the heart of true science. Many scientists have been arrogantly mistaken about the world. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Jestor wrote:

I stated my opinion, prove my opinion wrong...

You'll have to be more clear in stating your opinion if I am to know whether I have succeeded in disproving it or not. But who knows, maybe all of us are wrong. I just had a disturbing thought... Maybe the hokey pokey really is what it's all about...

Jestor wrote:

My job isnt to convince you of anything...

That is fortuitous, since I am not consciously aware of seeking any convincing, at the moment anyway. But there are more reasons than we know for the things we are guided to do, so perhaps I may end up desiring more than I currently do.

Jestor wrote:

It is to be the best me I can be...

That is an admirable goal, and one that I share. It is unfortunate that there can be such a fine line between productive discussion and mere intellectual posturing. Humor helps diffuse a lot, though.

Jestor wrote:

Im something of a "word-twister"... So I apologize...

I can take it. Well-chosen words shouldn't be able to be twisted much, if at all. Besides, I am honored that you would take the time.

Jestor wrote:

How would you feel about the love of my life cheating on me? Would it break your heart? I doubt it, even if you were to sympathize with me...

I don't have to feel the same exact thing you are feeling in order for what you're feeling to be more than your opinion. An opinion is an unverifiable perspective. Heartbreak and depression are medically detectable states involving changes in biochemistry and neuroelectrical activity. Sometimes the changes can be so severe or sudden that a person can die from them, or suffer serious damage to the heart, stomach, etc. I would call that pretty sufficient verification.

Jestor wrote:

A personal fact, is an opinion...

It depends. By "personal", do you mean subjective, or only affecting one person?

And "heartbreaking" is not a physical description of the emotion...

Anyone who has experienced heartbreak knows that it is a very poignantly literal physical description. It feels like your heart is breaking. Like, in half. Repeatedly. Anyone who would hear that and think only "sad" has never yet been in love. Which is not a crime. But it also doesn't really count.

Jestor wrote:

Or, maybe it is the sound of my own voice...

Well... such as it is, in a written message.

Jestor wrote:

Have you ever heard the mathematical expression that, "if one part is false, the rest is called into question"?

No, I've heard something similar, though: that if one part is false, so is the rest. At least with mathematics. I've also heard that "doubt is a seed best left unplanted." Why do you ask? You lost me at that part.

Jestor wrote:

Sit in the dark, and wait for me to cease to exist?

Actually, I've found that to be a very effective meditative technique for experiencing Samadhi! LOL But yeah, I get what you're saying, though.

Thanks for writing. I'm sure all the other members reading this have long since TL;DR'd out by now. LOL sorry, everyone else.

Fraternally in the Force,
-David

I am not Jedi. I don't strive to be Jedi, Sith, a dromedary, or anything else.

Who can say what is really behind the veils of language and semantics? What makes a "thing" a "thing"? It isn't the word used to represent it, is it? Words have meaning, yes, but only in as much as they allow us to communicate our own perceptions, beliefs, and opinions.

For my part, I strive to be nothing more or less than what I am. "I am that I am," truly is one of the best phrases anyone could use to define who or what one actually is. That's opinion, but it is my opinion that any statement one can make in this world is opinion as it comes out of wholly subjectice observations, beliefs, and personal dogma.

A point of curiousity, Lykeios- why don't you carry one of the names?

I ask because I have seen some not claim a name because they feel it is beyond their reach, or that there are too many whom have ruined the name in society.

UraharaKiskue wrote: Skill in the Martial Forms: Again a Core Message from the movies as represented by the Lightsaber and the improvement of skill we see in Luke.

Being a Jedi is not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing.

Some people feel that they need martial arts in order to meet their personal definition of a Jedi. Others do not...does that mean that they shouldn't be allowed to call themselves Jedi?

You say that we know with

UraharaKiskue wrote: a level of certainty

that we need this skill.

What makes you so certain? Is it written down in the Ultimate Jedi Rulebook? Oh wait...no such book exists...

Similarly with your other conditions of being a Jedi - I agree that they are common themes within the community. But do we really know with certainty that they have to be part of the Jedi path?

Do we really know anything about the Jedi path with certainty? Every organisation has a slightly different idea of what it means to be a Jedi. Every individual within these organisations has a slightly different idea again.

Each different organisation sets out roughly what they believe, and set out their training and rules based on this. But they also know that diversity is important...

Let me ask you this - if everyone was in agreement as to a) what we believe and b) how people should live according to what they believe, why do most Jedi organisations operate one-to-one Master/Apprentice training partnerships? Surely if TOTJO, for instance, wanted everyone to have to learn the same things in the same way, they would abolish Apprenticeships in favour of everyone carrying out a rigid training programme?

People are free to decide how they can best live life as a Jedi...and no two people will do it the same way, nor should we want them to...

V-tog i guess I didn't do all the training but I hope that community training as a jedi knight is in a way complete your knowledge of strengthening your life .Of course there different kind of jedi but we got to learn the basic foundation of realizing the jedi way. In a path that is interesting I guess .Martial art is very beneficial to accelerate your heart beat and thinking better I've experience it .Of course there a lot discipline and commitment and understanding .sometime martial art looks like a bunch of fighter who like getting punch .But it is not that .Martial arts is a form of dancing strength movement.In martial arts is a little bite of imitating animal and moving like them it kind or funny imitating movement of snake It seem weird but it's been done.And other to.

Sometime we got to make new experiences to understand different perspective.

And the Jedi path is only encouraging you to get better physically.I guess literature training is very good for mind but a I've seen a lot of people doing martial arts and they all said that it improved there life .For myself it did had that kind of perception of martial arts. It was very discipline witch i didn't have to much .But doing new thing is also the Jedi path.That's my point of view.

Have a nice day V-tog