Light or Shadow?

lol... ya might have me Althea...

I do try to always do the right thing... Id call for help after I was safe....

However, you call me light/grey/dark, asking to which color I prefer...

I only call myself a "jester"... A fool... Cause I seldom speak with certainty... What if I'm wrong?

"It's fantasy", "its fiction", "why does it matter"...

Everyone seems to be very worried about what everyone else is...

I'm just trying to figure out who I am....

Would I go after someone who has harmed my family? I hope to not have to test that particular aspect of my beliefs... Id like to say no...

++++++
I don't take offence at your critique of TOTJO...

So please, know I mean no offence in mine of FA...

I don't feel comfortable there... I feel the "dark aspect" use their "darkness" as an excuse to be rude....

I've seen excellent points made there, by all members, but honestly, the "darker" members seem to post most, and not too kindly...

Where here, even if we disagree, we do it with manners, and language suitable for our grandmothers... Maybe not always, some things still slip through.. lol..

But, this could be just how I felt when I went there at that particular time...

A visitor here, currently, may think we are all roleplayers if they only read Patrick's posts... (no offence Patrick...)

I don't take offense to that, and wish that a particularcouple of individuals on my council could read what you just said- because there are at least three that NEED to read it.

Alethea Thompson wrote: I don't take offense to that, and wish that a particularcouple of individuals on my council could read what you just said- because there are at least three that NEED to read it.

Its really not my place to say this as I am on no council and have no "rank" at all within either community, but I feel compelled to say it anyway: I agree with both of you about both FA and TOTJO.

FA is an interesting place to go when I need my argument/debate fix. So far I have to say, TOTJO seems a much more welcoming place. Though I think both groups are excellent in their own ways. So I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this. :S

I am not a fan of labels, they lead to stereotyping people. I believe as soon as we stop comparing ourselves to other people and worrying about what they think we will realize all we have to be is “Our self” and that it is not only good enough, it is perfect.

It becomes liberating, if you think about it, you are the best you, anyone could ever be. Don't worry about how other people rank you, or pigeon hole you, he is light, dark, shadow, that is their stuff to worry about, not yours.

As Jestor stated above, this is me. This is all I know how to be. This is all I have to offer, me, what I am, “Who” I am. Don't try to change it. If you don't like me or something about me, I understand and probably don't blame you but you leave me to do me and you go do you.

The example used earlier,

“You find yourself in a situation where you need to subdue an enemy (they are trying to kill you), it's just the two of you, and you are out in the open (no other danger is present, just you and your opponent. In the process of subduing your opponent, they end on the ground in critical condition - do you try to help them (helping can be as simple as calling an ambulance, but you would still need to be present when first responders arrive)? Or do you leave them, and hope you aren't caught?”

For me there was not enough information to make an accurate assessment on what I would do. Why were we both out there? Why are they trying to kill me? What had I done to invoke such hatred in someone? Do I deserve it? All of these things and more create the decisions we make, build the “You” that you are.

If deadly force was being used against me, my thought would never be to subdue. My training would probably kick in and I would act before I could make a conscious decision. Meaning, three rounds center of mass followed up with one to the head to anyone trying to kill me or someone else if I could prevent it.

Generally speaking, trying to subdue someone usually ends messy. Not saying death is not messy. Just that the subdued person will more likely try again to kill you, or someone else, if you manage to subdue them, they will be hurt, may come back after you or your family if they hate you enough to want to kill, and attempt it, may attack someone else after all they did attempt to kill you why not someone else, living in fear of retaliation, mental anguish, burden on families and society, being sued for harming the attacker. This can be a tough, messy aftermath.

If you walk away, can you live with that? Not knowing if they died, if they did live, are they coming after you again? If you help them, and they survive will they come after you? Will they see the error of their way? Will they become even more bitter and enraged toward you?

Personally, if I am thinking, can I get away with this, or will I get caught, I should not be doing this act to begin with. But I know stuff happens, and we adapt and learn from our experiences.

These experiences then are used to help us make decisions further on in our lives. This can become a slippery slope of moral decay if we are not careful. Things that may be okay in one situation may not be in another.

We must be careful not to rationalize our personal moral code away and find over time and experience we have lost our Code.

I am also not a fan of labels and categories for jedi. I prefer people just being jedi to what ever degree they want, we don't need to subdivide it.

As it is, I just act as a Jedi and let my actions define my aspect, not the other way around.

Yes, and your actions define you as a Light Jedi, Andy (and I'm not saying that because I added you to the aspect, I'm saying it because I know you well enough to make that call).

Karn wrote:

I am not a fan of labels, they lead to stereotyping people.

I am not a fan of labels, either, or stereotyping, and I liked what you had to say. However, I think the problem goes further than that. Using even just the word "Jedi" can be seen as applying a label, at least if the word Jedi is to have any set meaning at all. Do you consider yourself a Jedi? If so, then is that just noise coming out of your mouth when you say it, or does it actually mean something? And if so, what? Some half measure? Or what you strive daily to become or remain?

That is why I do not see the word Jedi as a label. Jedi is an ideal, a word describing a set of values to which we aspire through the Force if we wish to call ourselves Jedi. There is no such thing as a Dark Jedi. That would be like calling yourself a Light Sith. It's contradictory, meaningless, and very "Look at me!" syndrome. Why not just call yourself a Sith or a Jedi and be done with it? Pick your ideal and stay with it. For that matter, there is no Light Jedi, either. That's needless repetition, like saying "I'm a Jedi Jedi". To argue otherwise is just ego talking; people trying to justify their silly titling of themselves that, when you get down to it, has no substance.

In order for "Dark/Grey/Shadow/Light/etc" to have any meaning as prefixes, "Jedi" must be denigrated into meaning merely "a Force user". But a Jedi is not simply a Force user. Anyone can use the Force, and end up achieving any number of different nefarious results. You "use" (actually borrow) a small amount of the Force every day just to stay alive and breathing, whether you realize it or not.

What makes a Jedi is a Code, of honor and upright behavior, one that upholds the law so as to exalt virtue, defends the weak and the innocent, speaks honestly, seeks out the truth, respects all life, and has as a primary focus the fostering of Love and Service within the heart of each Jedi.

Everything else is either secondary or fictional. This is not just what a Jedi is to me. This is what a Jedi has always been portrayed as, ideally. No one would revere or respect the Jedi if they primarily went around being selfish bastards to everyone, doing whatever they wanted. It would only lead to fear and loathing.

Conversely, if a person calls him or herself a Jedi, they don't have to be perfectly in the Light at all times, but their understanding should always be that being in the Light (i.e. pursuing the Light Side of the Force as a way to sublimate our lives) is the goal. We're all human, after all. But that ideal should ever remain in our sights, if we wish to feel honest in calling ourselves Jedi. And if we really are meditating and communing with the Force as we should be, the necessity of working toward such an enlightened ideal will be made much clearer.

I know this post is not going to make me a lot of friends, but this is my best attempt to call it like I see it. The needless dilution of meaning by wanton ambiguity of the word Jedi does a disservice to everyone here except the lazy or fantasizing. And just to be clear, this is not a matter of my opinion. This is a matter of what is right and true if the term Jedi is to have any meaning whatsoever, beyond "my personal playtime" or "whatever the heck I want it to mean that suits my ego best at the time." The Living Force that dwells within us all is much greater than that and deserves being honored as such.

Fraternally in the Force,
-David

I am not a fan of labels, they lead to stereotyping people. I believe as soon as we stop comparing ourselves to other people and worrying about what they think we will realize all we have to be is “Our self” and that it is not only good enough, it is perfect.

It becomes liberating, if you think about it, you are the best you, anyone could ever be. Don't worry about how other people rank you, or pigeon hole you, he is light, dark, shadow, that is their stuff to worry about, not yours.

.

This is one of the reasons I bring this up. Can any of you even define what it means to be a Jedi?

A belief in "the Force"? Sith believe in "the Force", as do Baran Do (it is an actual philosophy started this year), as do Ashla Knights (though those who are Ashla Knights may as well be Jedi, they only dropped "Jedi" for legal readons [there were other reasons, but this was a large factor]).

A belief in the Jedi Code/Creed? The Soldier's Creed does not make someone a soldier, it just defines how one should up hold themselves as a soldier. It's there as a guideline, and anyone can believe in it's premise and even live by it-wouldn't make them a soldier at the end of the day.

An action to help others? Missionaries do this all the time, why aren't they automatically Jedi?

Meditative practices? Yogis do this, why notcall them Jedi?

All of these combined, and more, is how you can call yourself an actual Jedi with legitamacy behind it. There are members of ToTJO that ARE Jedi, and there are those whom only refer to themselves as such because they meet part of the criteria, and do not realize (or are too lazy to go after it) that there are other pieces to the puzzle.

They are scattered among the community as well, not just here, I have them at FA in the LA, they are everywhere. One of the reasons this occurs, is because we do not lay it out well enough when we talk about what it means to be a Jedi. You can say "I am me", it's not enough, because it's a cop out to anyone really wanting to pursue the path.

Did a little deeper- what MAKES you a Jedi?

The path walked is identified by the destination not by the progress.... unless its the scenic route!!

My point is since no-one is perfect we/everyone are always going to be operating in shades of grey - so why would we use these titles to reflect our behaviour. Lets look at the nature of perhaps the problem, we have three domains;

1. external community
2. the Force community
3. Jedi/Sith communities

Domain's 1 and 3 view the core issues completely differently, and domain 2 is left in the middle and thus potentially using mixed definitions. That external intepretation (domain 1) of darkness is not the dark side of the Force, its the dark side of the dark side! They think its despotic evil because it is what was portrayed by one fictional ruler and his minions. Is that practical or even relevant to the Force! Remember this is not a roleplaying community.

I think we can all agree its about the Force for both Jedi and Sith. So I think its pointless to use dark as synonymous with evil, and then to extend that to grey as being mixed, and light as being pure - because if so, we are not talking about the Force, but about the persons thoughts and behaviours which happen to reinforce that domain 1 perception = less then helpful. So I do not think it can be about how the individual might behave with the Force, that is too nebulas and dynamic. I think it has to be about how the individual accesses the Force, as a practitioner of the Force.

For my mind quite simply the Jedi use a moral approach to connect to the Force, and the Sith use an emotional approach to connect to the Force, as outlined by their respective codes.

So perhaps as new people enter from domain 1 they become part of domain 2 and the Force community might have 2 interpretations of the word dark going on, and sometimes I'm not sure if they are aware of it, because sometimes it means bad behaviour AND sometimes it seems to mean an aspect of the Force. I prefer to simply use 'dark' to refer to the Sith technique of Force awareness. That's why I think its either a Light path, or a Dark path... and no grey - in that context of interpreting the Force.

As I looked deeper into the nature of these I realized they can only be one or the other.... I know only Sith deal in absolutes, haha, but they are not absolutes they are just two specific techniques and every individual will have good days and bad days. Are their other approach's to connecting to the Force? Maybe, but if we look at the Jedi and Sith Codes, they in this way serve sufficient reference to underpin most of the EU while allowing extension into reality as effective spiritual paths, IMO, and I think that is what many of us are trying to achieve to have some connection to the myth but more importantly to have a real forward movement in spirituality.

Althea wrote: Did a little deeper- what MAKES you a Jedi?

We each make it for ourselves....

FraterDavid wrote: I know this post is not going to make me a lot of friends,

Not true, we still love you...

but this is my best attempt to call it like I see it. The needless dilution of meaning by wanton ambiguity of the word Jedi does a disservice to everyone here except the lazy or fantasizing. And just to be clear, this is not a matter of my opinion. This is a matter of what is right and true if the term Jedi is to have any meaning whatsoever, beyond "my personal playtime" or "whatever the heck I want it to mean that suits my ego best at the time." The Living Force that dwells within us all is much greater than that and deserves being honored as such.

Well said, and while many of us agree, its still opinion...

Everything is.....