My belief system

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24 Apr 2019 18:01 - 24 Apr 2019 18:03 #337617 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic My belief system

Proteus wrote: Yes, I just saw his response on page 12, which I didn't catch the first time around. Apologies. That does unfortunately change the scene here in this instance I think.


no worries. I was once entirely driven by the desire for truth. It took me interacting with people to understand how those points of contention were more than just ideas to them, but rather fond memories, comfort "in the time of storm", and footprints in the sand.

These "ideas" that we sometimes debate are not just ideas. They are the inspiration on which people build on and grow from. I agree 1000% with Kyrin on Abrahamic religions (because I hate what certain biblical characters did and the systems they put in place); however... I also know what Christianity means to my mother. These are not just a set of ideas. They are hopes and dreams. I could continue to try to crush these ideas every time my mother asks me about attending church, but who am I to crush her hopes and dreams? Who are any of us?

So I'm not saying Argument A, B, or C is wrong. I'm not saying everything Lenny believes is right. I'm simply saying we should respect what people believe and hope they afford us that same courtesy so that we can all feel welcome.
Last edit: 24 Apr 2019 18:03 by ZealotX.
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24 Apr 2019 18:49 #337624 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic My belief system

ZealotX wrote: So let me get this straight.

If a Christian posts "Footprints in the Sand" for example, on the Open Discussion forum, does that give any and all persons the license to go all in on that topic, including language such as "lazy" and "garbage"?


Why would it not? It is after all an “open” discussion. If it’s not to be discussed openly then put it in the Abrahamic studies forum and qualify the nature of the discussion. That is the reason for the different boards. I also wonder why you would take such offense at the term lazy and then turn right around and use an equally offensive term like “intellectual molestation’ or accuse someone of conducting a “flame war” when that is clearly not the case?




ZealotX wrote: What if the OP isn't a Christian and yet we know we have Christian Jedi among us who might be personally offended? I guess my question is, where do we draw the line?


They can be just as offended as they like. I see no reason why my opinion of a subject matter would be any less valid than theirs. You see Christianity in general is rather offensive to me and yet I can still have intelligent discourse and even be friends with Christians because I don’t confuse the individual with the idea. I can discuss ideas such as Christianity and still go have a beer with the individual that I otherwise admire, trust or even love. That is where I draw the line, so many others can’t even see this line though. That is the real issue.

For example, take this quote,


Proteus wrote: One person (and a guest at that), sharing their views and questions on the topic, based on what is simply the principle of critical thinking.



I find his characterization of “guest” as personally quite offensive. There was absolutely no reason to include that except to belittle someone. It comes across as elitist, especially since I have held many ranks here and even been up for Knighthood multiple times. However this is a known character flaw for Proteus and even though I will take exception and point it out to him whenever I see it, I can still have civil conversations with him in other areas. In other words it does not cause me to become unglued and freak out… or whatever. It’s something we all must accept about others, that we all have flaws. At that point it becomes simply a choice to interact in spite of those or not. No reason to burn a cross over it though.




ZealotX wrote: I'm simply looking for clarity at this point because there is no sticky thread in the Open Discussion forum that lays out any ground rules or lack thereof. And if there is no way for the OP to know he's about to post in a free-for-all melee of criticism then, IMHO, it is unfair to treat the subject as such. It's like if I play an online shooter and people on a particular server allow all kinds of racist language and I come in not knowing that. If there was some kind of notice then yeah... it'd be my responsibility (even though the language still isn't right) to have chosen a different server to play even though it could be argued public server vs private server, etc. However, if no such warning exists then I have no protection from the offenses that might follow and I don't think I should have to be subject to that.



I find these comments to be the most ridiculous. (No offense :P ) This demand for safe spaces for people to retreat too and trigger warnings to help protect a “fragile psyche” is quite frankly not only unrealistic it’s just preposterous! This growing trend in the call for time outs and safe spaces and cultural language rules by societal snowflakes is just not attached to reality in any way. There are no such things in real life and to pretend we can fix the world and stop the offenses just by fantasizing these vacuous creations do anything for us is just inane. The world does not work this way. Just because you feel you shouldn’t have to be subject to such offenses has no bearing on the fact that you potentially will be over and over every single day. I say instead of avoiding such things, learn how to deal with them or get over them or you will be in real trouble when the actual shit hits the fan.




ZealotX wrote: The description of Open Discussions is simply "Open Discussion about Jediism or anything else!" That does not specify what "open discussion" means to you or Ren, with all due respect to you both.

So are we inviting the world to come in and critically bash Jediism and flame us for using a name tied to a fictional franchise? Because by the logic I'm hearing this seems to be the case and anyone from any religion can come to this forum and make multiple threads to attack Jediism, whether it's your brand or mine or Lenny's or Ren's.

And I don't think that was ever the intent of this website.



What if it means something different to me than it does to you or Ren? So what? What makes your opinion of what it means more valid than mine? Why do you get to assume the high moral ground in this? As for welcoming others to come in and critically [critique] Jediism, I say HELL YES! Let them come, let them bring all guns to bear, I won’t cry foul nor run to a safe space, nor claim victim hood or plead for them to stop. This is not an attack when done in the spirit of honest debate, it is a challenge to defend and to grow and reinforce and to evolve as Jedi or whatever else may come out of it! In fact I have been accused many times over of this sort of thing. It has brought me to some interesting places and evolved my beliefs in incredible ways. So don’t be afraid of such things, seek them out and make the cry to “bring it on”!!

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

Associate Degree of Divinity - Earned July, 2017
Apprenticed to: Alan, Senan, Mendalicious
Tribute to Senan: My Friend
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24 Apr 2019 19:06 #337627 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic My belief system

ZealotX wrote:

Proteus wrote: Yes, I just saw his response on page 12, which I didn't catch the first time around. Apologies. That does unfortunately change the scene here in this instance I think.


no worries. I was once entirely driven by the desire for truth. It took me interacting with people to understand how those points of contention were more than just ideas to them, but rather fond memories, comfort "in the time of storm", and footprints in the sand.

These "ideas" that we sometimes debate are not just ideas. They are the inspiration on which people build on and grow from. I agree 1000% with Kyrin on Abrahamic religions (because I hate what certain biblical characters did and the systems they put in place); however... I also know what Christianity means to my mother. These are not just a set of ideas. They are hopes and dreams. I could continue to try to crush these ideas every time my mother asks me about attending church, but who am I to crush her hopes and dreams? Who are any of us?

So I'm not saying Argument A, B, or C is wrong. I'm not saying everything Lenny believes is right. I'm simply saying we should respect what people believe and hope they afford us that same courtesy so that we can all feel welcome.


I very much agree here.

Just an understanding I have developed over sometime, is the necessity to be very careful when interacting with people about their beliefs because of the very flaws humans have with them that one could easily try to hold against them. For instance, I had a best friend who's Christian beliefs were the fragile string left keeping her from killing herself. If I were to question her out of the validity of those beliefs, I seriously doubt she would have had the mental/emotional fortitude to work herself through it if she were that close to the edge as it was. Another one is someone I have met recently who spent 26 years in prison for murder. While there, he adopted conservative baptist beliefs. He's still mentally quite unstable, but he uses his beliefs (even in the complete ignorance of knowing what he's talking about most of the time) as his one and only handle for keeping himself in check or else he has confessed multiple times, he could do it again. Obviously, it would not seem right for me to question him out of those beliefs because of the very understandably human flaws that directed him to those beliefs and have him rely on crutching on it just to keep himself together.

The thing is, these kinds of situations can be present with anyone online, at this temple, who you don't personally know. For all you know, while you think you're digging out "truth" for the better of the person you are questioning and/or debating, you could very well be risking directing them toward a possibly destructive end of some kind.

This is why, no matter how ridiculous someone else's beliefs may seem to me, I've learned not to confront them about it. I created a separate thread asking about this for others, but I will just say for myself, I don't feel it is my responsibility to do that with others. It's just dangerous, even if you think you're only asking seemingly innocent questions. It's very important to understand the psychology of people when it comes to religious beliefs. I can usually tell when someone really does by how they interact with others when it comes to these kinds of things.

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
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24 Apr 2019 19:24 #337628 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic My belief system
Just for fun.......



Bethany: What's He like?

Rufus: He likes to listen to people talk. I remember the old days when we were sittin' around the fire. You know, whenever we were goin' on about unimportant shit, He'd always have a smile on his face. His only real beef with mankind is the shit that gets carried out His name. Wars. Bigotry. Televangelism. The big one though, is the factioning of the religions. He said, "Mankind got it all wrong by takin' a good idea and building a belief structure out of it."

Bethany: So you're saying that having beliefs is a bad thing?

Rufus: I just think it's better to have an idea. You can change an idea; changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for it. The whole of existence is in jeopardy right now because of the Catholic belief system in this Plenary Indulgence bullshit. Bartleby and Loki, whether they know it or not, are exploiting that belief, and if they're successful, you, me, all of this ends in a heartbeat. All over a belief" --Chris Rock as Roofus, Dogma written by Kevin Smith

Much Love, Rspect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
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24 Apr 2019 19:56 #337635 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic My belief system

Proteus wrote:
The thing is, these kinds of situations can be present with anyone online, at this temple, who you don't personally know. For all you know, while you think you're digging out "truth" for the better of the person you are questioning and/or debating, you could very well be risking directing them toward a possibly destructive end of some kind.



There is that flaw again. This idea of superiority you feel you have over others. If these individuals are in that bad of shape why dont you get them some help instead of ignoring them. In the end it is not your influence that will cause them to choose anything. You are not the dictator of their free will. Only they have that choice and only they have the ability to use one biased excuse or another to justify poor decisions. You have nothing to do with it.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

Associate Degree of Divinity - Earned July, 2017
Apprenticed to: Alan, Senan, Mendalicious
Tribute to Senan: My Friend
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24 Apr 2019 20:07 #337636 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic My belief system

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Proteus wrote:
The thing is, these kinds of situations can be present with anyone online, at this temple, who you don't personally know. For all you know, while you think you're digging out "truth" for the better of the person you are questioning and/or debating, you could very well be risking directing them toward a possibly destructive end of some kind.



There is that flaw again. This idea of superiority you feel you have over others. If these individuals are in that bad of shape why dont you get them some help instead of ignoring them. In the end it is not your influence that will cause them to choose anything. You are not the dictator of their free will. Only they have that choice and only they have the ability to use one biased excuse or another to justify poor decisions. You have nothing to do with it.


I'm sorry, you've completely lost me. I don't know if you're trying to disagree with me, because what your'e saying is precisely what I was pointing out. All I know is that you managed to create an assumption that you know how I feel and that I somehow feel superior over others based on some text.

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
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24 Apr 2019 20:08 #337637 by ren
Replied by ren on topic My belief system
The doctrine isn't above criticism. It encourages free thought, free speech, the ethic of reciprocity, and the pursuit of knowledge.

There is no need to lock threads because someone doesn't like what is being discussed and no taboo as long as what is being said isn't legally problematic to us.


I'm surprised you guys don't criticize your own beliefs. How do you refine them?

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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24 Apr 2019 20:47 #337638 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic My belief system

ren wrote: I'm surprised you guys don't criticize your own beliefs. How do you refine them?



For me, one thing I used was apprenticeship. The process of going through apprenticeship (twice) was a process of critical analysis of my beliefs and their subsequent refinement. I don't know if this is the case for everyone but if its not I see no reason why anyone would ever undertake such a mission.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

Associate Degree of Divinity - Earned July, 2017
Apprenticed to: Alan, Senan, Mendalicious
Tribute to Senan: My Friend
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24 Apr 2019 23:08 #337641 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic My belief system

ren wrote: The doctrine isn't above criticism. It encourages free thought, free speech, the ethic of reciprocity, and the pursuit of knowledge.

There is no need to lock threads because someone doesn't like what is being discussed and no taboo as long as what is being said isn't legally problematic to us.


I'm surprised you guys don't criticize your own beliefs. How do you refine them?


Did you really mean criticize? To criticize something is not a synonym with critical AFAIK. Criticizing something doesn't necessarily refine it, but it might. A valid criticizm might refine it, but I think a Jedi uses more efficient ways to refine then blunt instruments.

But who says we don't anyway!! Assumptions are half the problem, people make them and then characterize people with them... on paper it would be 50/50 that the assumption if incorrect would be insulting, but for some reason when certain folk here make these assumptions in this way its 100% insulting. Your thoughts betray you, as the saying goes. It speaks to issues with the assumptions being made and how they are used, which if repeated enough seems to constitute intent and method.

The actual issue IMO seems to be how some people are over critical, ie attacking, rather then whether someone is necessarily being critical. There is an exporative and supportive way to break things down and reveal failings, and their is a mocking and insulting way.... the later is a problem in a lot of peoples eyes, but not for a few... seemingly. I obviously go with the former, but just because it works better IMO to achieve real progress.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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25 Apr 2019 00:38 #337642 by Rosalyn J
Replied by Rosalyn J on topic My belief system
In reference to above. Conotation vs denotation I suppose

criticize
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English
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criticise (UK)
Etymology
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critic +‎ -ize; first element from Ancient Greek κριτικός (kritikós, “of or for judging, able to discern”), from κρίσις (krísis, “crisis”)

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IPA(key): /ˈkɹɪtɪsaɪz/
Hyphenation: crit‧i‧cize
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criticize (third-person singular simple present criticizes, present participle criticizing, simple past and past participle criticized) (transitive, intransitive)

To find fault (with something).
To evaluate (something), assessing its merits and faults.
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(find fault with): censure, pick at
(evaluate): appraise, judge
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From : en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/criticize
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