My belief system

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23 Apr 2019 23:15 - 23 Apr 2019 23:23 #337579 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic My belief system
I think its less a matter of location, and more of each persons interpretation of the rules and terms of use. The Terms of Use we have now in addition to the rules introduced some subjective room on what was appropriate and what was not......seemingly with the intent for people to understand the forum was meant to be supportive and exploratory, not critical and mocking. And being supportive and exploratory is not necessarily enabling stagnation or falsehood, but when you get forum areas like Faith then I see them as enabling a deeper support which could be considered more belief and less reality. Rather then open discussion being open slather and Faith (and Jediism) areas being where beliefs go.

I was arguing late last year that the Faith forum should be less open to critique, but I don't think that means its the only place belief needs to be understood in practical terms for its role, and treated fairly despite its differences.

So I tend to feel that when a person posts a thread in Open Discussions called 'My belief system' and says they believe in something and post an article that explains it.... that its a chance to explore the topic rather then attack the topic and person sharing it, no matter where it is... even in Open Discussions. But perhaps I always just saw the Faith area as a working group type of environment for interested people to go into greater depth. Either way the forum layout is also open to interpretation seemingly :silly:

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 23 Apr 2019 23:23 by Adder.
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23 Apr 2019 23:53 #337586 by ren
Replied by ren on topic My belief system

ZealotX wrote:

ren wrote: It was posted in 'open discussions'. If it wasn't open for debate, it should not have been posted here.


By it, I assume you mean his belief system. But it wasn't posted as "let's discuss the truth and accuracy of everything I'm about to say because what I'm about to say is true". Debating the historical validity could have been viewed as off topic. If anything, I think the OP should get to control what he or she wants to discuss and what their thread is about. I'm not sure everyone is so informed about the implications of the term "open" discussion. Open Discussions can still have rules, protocol, guidelines, regulations just as we still expect folks to display manners, ethics, decorum. And I don't think one should suffer the consequences of posting on the "wrong forum" if indeed that's what happened.

At all times I think we should treat all members and visitors alike the same way we would want to be treated. Lenny did an admirable job keeping his cool and trying to respond to everyone but, being present from page 1, at some point it started looking more like target practice and we must always be mindful of our motives and act with humility and nobility. If one stops caring about the other person's feelings then what is the true reason for the continued discourse? I mean don't we want to encourage different perspectives, thoughts, ideas? Trying to kill them in infancy isn't exactly welcoming.


There is nothing preventing your posts in this thread from being encouraging of Lenny, or inquisitive of his perspectives, thoughts and ideas. Feel free to do that.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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24 Apr 2019 13:23 #337600 by Rosalyn J
Replied by Rosalyn J on topic My belief system

Don't let your wounds get in the way-Bishop Vashti McKenzie
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Youth Minister
Editor in Chief of the TOTJO Times
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Teaching Maitre: Alexandre Orion
How Am I Doing , My Commitment
Kyber,Freja Saol-Wasser, Tobias Giesel, ZealotX,and Jhannuzs

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24 Apr 2019 14:43 #337601 by ren
Replied by ren on topic My belief system
I should point out I am not the author of that sermon. Thanks Ros.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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24 Apr 2019 14:48 #337603 by Rosalyn J
Replied by Rosalyn J on topic My belief system
In my little project there are quite a few which are unattributed

Don't let your wounds get in the way-Bishop Vashti McKenzie
Senior Knight, Senior Ordained Minister
Youth Minister
Editor in Chief of the TOTJO Times
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. Submit articles
Teaching Maitre: Alexandre Orion
How Am I Doing , My Commitment
Kyber,Freja Saol-Wasser, Tobias Giesel, ZealotX,and Jhannuzs

Initiate Journal , Apprenticeship Journal , Clerical Journal , Continued Study
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24 Apr 2019 15:54 #337606 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic My belief system

ZealotX wrote: I'm a little disappointed with some of the responses in this thread. I think at some point I tried to make the point how is Lenny's belief system different from others? The point of that question is that I think we all try to take some measures in limiting our criticism, especially of Abrahamic religions, in an effort to avoid unnecessary offense. Maybe it's because these religions are more "mainstream" and stranger ideas represent more "extreme" views. But why? Why do we not treat all religions equally? Shouldn't they be? Or is it because many people believe in them and thus, mob rule, creates the boundaries where we respect the belief simply because it is believed?



You can rest assured that I am not hypocritical in this regard. I do not limit criticism in any way to any false belief and in particular the Abrahamic ones. They are some of the most prolific and most destructive belief systems to ever exist. It’s the mainstream-ness of these that allow them to be some of the most dangerous. They waste lives and steal money and build grand cathedrals all in the name of some false god. They have evolved from what once might have been religion to a set of some of the biggest for profit businesses to ever exist, all perfectly disguised as a benevolent belief system. All the while their leaders live in the lap of luxury and worship while their constituents starve. Pretty disgusting if you ask me.

Beyond that, there has been no religious persecution here. Far from it. This has been a meaningful discussion, not one of hostility or ill intent as you imply. The fact that people feel attacked over such probing questions has no bearing on the asker, it has to do with the conviction of the believer. If they feel uncomfortable when questioned about belief, then they need to reevaluate that belief. Sadly they often times will not do this and instead resort to victim mentality and claim they were attacked when that fact is nowhere in evidence. This is designed only to deflect the discussion, not further it.

The idea of simply believing something without exploring or knowing why you actually believe it is just lazy. It is a sheep mentality that only serves to put people to sleep. This never has a good ending as it leads people to radicalism in a myriad of forms instead of allowing them to actually know who they are and what they stand for. They become convinced of all sorts of garbage and they never even stop to ask why? Instead they cherry pick and shun evidence and never face their true selves in an honest fashion.

These “stories” people cling too are a highly effective method of this sort of indoctrination. It matters not whether any shred of it is true or not. People love to step outside of their normal lives because they don’t want to take any responsibility for what is actually happening to them. Instead they put that responsibility in the hands of Gods and supernatural beings and in doing this they can blame others for their circumstances instead of themselves. “Oh it’s in God’s hands”, or “It was Gods will”, or “He works in mysterious ways” or “all the glory to god”. Insert whatever supernatural divine entity you desire for God in these quotes, it matters not, the results are the same. Ignorant bliss instead of taking up the responsibility of the self-pursuit of your true bliss, as Campbell puts it.

Ren is right, this was posted in an open discussion forum. And as a result it shall be discussed within the boundaries of the rules of this forum. I see no need to pull any points of discussion just because the post “Might have been put in the wrong section”. That was not my responsibility, it was the OPers. I will hold him to that responsibility and take no shame in any of my responses here just because of “benefit of the doubt.” I have no control over anyone’s reactions to anything said here either. Instead each of us must that that responsibility for ourselves. People can either choose to see these responses in the way they were meant - honest discussion of ideas and constructive criticism, or They can resort to victim hood mentality and play the oppressed one. The difference is in how well each of us knows ourselves.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

Associate Degree of Divinity - Earned July, 2017
Apprenticed to: Alan, Senan, Mendalicious
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24 Apr 2019 16:20 #337607 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic My belief system

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

ZealotX wrote: I'm a little disappointed with some of the responses in this thread. I think at some point I tried to make the point how is Lenny's belief system different from others? The point of that question is that I think we all try to take some measures in limiting our criticism, especially of Abrahamic religions, in an effort to avoid unnecessary offense. Maybe it's because these religions are more "mainstream" and stranger ideas represent more "extreme" views. But why? Why do we not treat all religions equally? Shouldn't they be? Or is it because many people believe in them and thus, mob rule, creates the boundaries where we respect the belief simply because it is believed?



You can rest assured that I am not hypocritical in this regard. I do not limit criticism in any way to any false belief and in particular the Abrahamic ones. They are some of the most prolific and most destructive belief systems to ever exist. It’s the mainstream-ness of these that allow them to be some of the most dangerous. They waste lives and steal money and build grand cathedrals all in the name of some false god. They have evolved from what once might have been religion to a set of some of the biggest for profit businesses to ever exist, all perfectly disguised as a benevolent belief system. All the while their leaders live in the lap of luxury and worship while their constituents starve. Pretty disgusting if you ask me.

Beyond that, there has been no religious persecution here. Far from it. This has been a meaningful discussion, not one of hostility or ill intent as you imply. The fact that people feel attacked over such probing questions has no bearing on the asker, it has to do with the conviction of the believer. If they feel uncomfortable when questioned about belief, then they need to reevaluate that belief. Sadly they often times will not do this and instead resort to victim mentality and claim they were attacked when that fact is nowhere in evidence. This is designed only to deflect the discussion, not further it.

The idea of simply believing something without exploring or knowing why you actually believe it is just lazy. It is a sheep mentality that only serves to put people to sleep. This never has a good ending as it leads people to radicalism in a myriad of forms instead of allowing them to actually know who they are and what they stand for. They become convinced of all sorts of garbage and they never even stop to ask why? Instead they cherry pick and shun evidence and never face their true selves in an honest fashion.

These “stories” people cling too are a highly effective method of this sort of indoctrination. It matters not whether any shred of it is true or not. People love to step outside of their normal lives because they don’t want to take any responsibility for what is actually happening to them. Instead they put that responsibility in the hands of Gods and supernatural beings and in doing this they can blame others for their circumstances instead of themselves. “Oh it’s in God’s hands”, or “It was Gods will”, or “He works in mysterious ways” or “all the glory to god”. Insert whatever supernatural divine entity you desire for God in these quotes, it matters not, the results are the same. Ignorant bliss instead of taking up the responsibility of the self-pursuit of your true bliss, as Campbell puts it.

Ren is right, this was posted in an open discussion forum. And as a result it shall be discussed within the boundaries of the rules of this forum. I see no need to pull any points of discussion just because the post “Might have been put in the wrong section”. That was not my responsibility, it was the OPers. I will hold him to that responsibility and take no shame in any of my responses here just because of “benefit of the doubt.” I have no control over anyone’s reactions to anything said here either. Instead each of us must that that responsibility for ourselves. People can either choose to see these responses in the way they were meant - honest discussion of ideas and constructive criticism, or They can resort to victim hood mentality and play the oppressed one. The difference is in how well each of us knows ourselves.


So let me get this straight.

If a Christian posts "Footprints in the Sand" for example, on the Open Discussion forum, does that give any and all persons the license to go all in on that topic, including language such as "lazy" and "garbage"?



What if the OP isn't a Christian and yet we know we have Christian Jedi among us who might be personally offended? I guess my question is, where do we draw the line?

And if the reaction/feelings of the OP aren't a factor of consideration for how we respond then for what purpose are we responding and for whom are our responses for?

I'm simply looking for clarity at this point because there is no sticky thread in the Open Discussion forum that lays out any ground rules or lack thereof. And if there is no way for the OP to know he's about to post in a free-for-all melee of criticism then, IMHO, it is unfair to treat the subject as such. It's like if I play an online shooter and people on a particular server allow all kinds of racist language and I come in not knowing that. If there was some kind of notice then yeah... it'd be my responsibility (even though the language still isn't right) to have chosen a different server to play even though it could be argued public server vs private server, etc. However, if no such warning exists then I have no protection from the offenses that might follow and I don't think I should have to be subject to that.

The description of Open Discussions is simply "Open Discussion about Jediism or anything else!"

That does not specify what "open discussion" means to you or Ren, with all due respect to you both. And if your interpretation = no holds barred flame war, that's fine but I don't think everyone would naturally come in sharing that opinion or expecting that kind of content; especially since it mentions Jediism specifically. So are we inviting the world to come in and critically bash Jediism and flame us for using a name tied to a fictional franchise? Because by the logic I'm hearing this seems to be the case and anyone from any religion can come to this forum and make multiple threads to attack Jediism, whether it's your brand or mine or Lenny's or Ren's.

And I don't think that was ever the intent of this website.
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24 Apr 2019 16:38 #337611 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic My belief system
Hm, the OP doesn't seem to be having an issue with what is going on here: One person (and a guest at that), sharing their views and questions on the topic, based on what is simply the principle of critical thinking. I'm just observing that someone who is not the OP seems more distressed over this than than OP themselves. And this is something that sounds like its stemming from some fear of something that is not actually a threat, because it is being interpreted through a personally biased filter. I don't see any kind of oppression going on, or a flame war. Like Jestor would have said "We're just talking"... really guys, it's okay... XD

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
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24 Apr 2019 17:48 #337614 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic My belief system

Proteus wrote: Hm, the OP doesn't seem to be having an issue with what is going on here: One person (and a guest at that), sharing their views and questions on the topic, based on what is simply the principle of critical thinking. I'm just observing that someone who is not the OP seems more distressed over this than than OP themselves. And this is something that sounds like its stemming from some fear of something that is not actually a threat, because it is being interpreted through a personally biased filter. I don't see any kind of oppression going on, or a flame war. Like Jestor would have said "We're just talking"... really guys, it's okay... XD


Except that the OP requested the thread be locked on page 12 because he felt it had gotten out of hand. I simply agree with that sentiment and marvel at the fact that he withstood so many criticisms. He is the only one on this site who holds these beliefs and the only one who can defend them. But should he have to? If it were as you said, "just talking" I doubt the OP would have made that request. The fact is that once he made that request or even hinted that the opposition to his ideas was getting to be too much that's when people should have started backing off. He made only a couple of responses after that which I would expect in keeping with his desire to be forthcoming. But the truth is it should have ended on page 12 when he requested the thread to be locked. And now I'm being seemingly accused of being in distress when in reality I only acted in his defense. Not only did I actually read what he had to say but I agree with his right to believe whatever he chooses without prejudice or intellectual molestation. He also stated twice that he was fully aware that everything was not 100% accurate and that it was to reinforce his understanding and belief in the Force. He also talked about how it helps him personally. Need I continue? My disappointment stems from the fact that I don't think everyone was interested in his reasons or motivations, but rather saw blood in the water. And even when he gave clear indication that it had gotten out of hand, that too was ignored. So again I ask, where do we draw the line?
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24 Apr 2019 17:53 #337615 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic My belief system
Yes, I just saw his response on page 12, which I didn't catch the first time around. Apologies. That does unfortunately change the scene here in this instance I think.

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3
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