Why so many people become disappointed with this community

ren wrote: A majority of councillors has decided to remove read and write access to the jediism category to guests. No councillor voted in favour of retaining the read-only system we have now, and no councillor voted to open the jediism category to guests.

I don't know whether to face palm, smile, or both maybe? Such a huge out-cry for guests to be able to post here gave such a huge push to allow permissions then in the end months later its like a unanimous...naaaaah....

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: A majority of councillors has decided to remove read and write access to the jediism category to guests. No councillor voted in favour of retaining the read-only system we have now, and no councillor voted to open the jediism category to guests.

I don't know whether to face palm, smile, or both maybe? Such a huge out-cry for guests to be able to post here gave such a huge push to allow permissions then in the end months later its like a unanimous...naaaaah....

First, the vote wasn't unanimous. We just reached the necessary majority for it to pass. I hadn't voted yet, but it wouldn't matter because the measure passed without me anyway.

Second, things have changed since the last time this conversation took place. Most notably, there are people who formerly had access to higher levels of the forums that have requested to have their status changed to "guest" after resigning or giving up a rank. Technically, this puts those people on the same level as someone brand new walking in the front door for the first time, so we have to consider what the best procedure is to grant anyone in this position interested the role of "Member" and decide what access that will give them. At one point this involved taking the Simple Vow. We've also discussed whether certain lessons should be completed in order to become a Member rather than just a guest. Since all of this is currently being reviewed, the decision made now is being informed by a different set of circumstances than it was before.

As difficult as it is to accommodate everyone, it only gets harder when we are asked to reconsider issues from the past with a different Council in place operating under different rules. Outcomes will not always be the same as they were before as circumstances change.

WHAT THE ACTUAL ....

You're locking the one board dedicated to what this whole site is supposed to be about behind a wall. Don't you think new members, truly new members, are going to be curious about everything that that board holds? And now you've completely locked it away from them.

So what the actual ****?! You might as well just lock the entire IP process behind the membership wall too, lock the library away, and give "guests" access to non-relevant boards only at this rate. Actually there's a thought. Why don't you get rid of guests all together. Cause heaven knows by the time this year is up, the only people who are going to have any true access to anything relevant at all are those who are willing to become members.

I can't even believe that you truly decided locking that board away was really the best option. Not after you promised to open it up. For the record, y'all might want to review that IP lesson about what a "cult" is. . .

And y'know what...I think I finally get why people say TOTJO really isn't about Jediism and growth anymore... So screw it. Just screw it.

Avalon wrote: WHAT THE ACTUAL .... other stuff ... So screw it. Just screw it.

Ava - I understand your anger and disappointment. I hear your frustration and you aren't the only one who has raised these points. This doesn't have to be a permanent thing and we can continue to discuss it, but anger is not the way to go about it.

It makes sense that guests might be curious about Jediism and what it is. They would look to that forum to learn more, and now they do not have access to do so. This is a potential problem that can be solved in a number of ways and we're looking at those ways. I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. The issue that we are running into is that due to a number of members of higher rank or title asking to be demoted to guest after resigning, that category has become a mixed bag of newbies and others who have already completed a lot of training here. It makes it impossible for us to set a standard for how to move forward from guest to member when some guests have already completed what those requirements would be and refuse to do it again, but still want the access they had before. We end up with people deciding to air dirty laundry in the Jediism or Open Discussions forums rather than handling them where they should be because they have chosen to surrender the required access. This creates a lot of confusion for new people arriving who wonder what the hell is going on and why some Councillor (me) is bickering with people about what they are allowed to read.

This is a work in progress, and I fully expect that there will be more conversations about it. I'd like to think we are capable of keeping those conversations polite and constructive. That, along with being fair to as many people as possible, is my goal here. If you truly believe that this sort of action makes TOTJO a "cult", I would have to disagree with you wholeheartedly, but that is a conversation for another time and place.

Everyone interested in making something better will probably be disappointed that there is work required to make that happen. Since the more I like something the more I can get disappointed in it!! I think its a function of being attached to something, we align to it, identify with it, and then draw expectations to it (but what of ourselves?). Which all seems normal. And we all want 'better' things 'sooner', rather then later also.... and once we have an image of how something could be better it not only makes the present iteration look sub-par but it also frames past decisions in a distorted context IMO.

It's there I think its wrong to use that position as a basis to judge and criticize past decisions, for it is missing the details of when those decisions were made. It's just not a very accurate framework to assess that process nor a particularly truthful representation. It is though one way to approach analysis, but probably not the most efficient way... and I don''t think analysis of the past is the actual intent, beyond the superficial in rather the referencing of it to improve the future.

When I stumbled upon Jedi Realism I was very disappointed with all the sites online... and chose TOTJO because it was the best of the bunch in terms of site and activity. But of course 'best' is relative to the other Jedi sites, nothing more. And having been in a few groups over the years, and running my own a few times (in different communities), I've not been surprised by anything I've seen. Disappointed yes, but not surprised. I think to be disappointed one would need to have expectations, and whether the resultant disappointed was justified would determine on how those expectations were formed - if from experience ie consistency, then it would seem valid to be disappointed, but if they were my own expectations then the disappointment is not with the site but with myself for not being able to achieve the change I seek. That is how I see it anyway, and there are probably types of associations emerging from expectation too.

Avalon wrote: WHAT THE ACTUAL ....

You're locking the one board dedicated to what this whole site is supposed to be about behind a wall. Don't you think new members, truly new members, are going to be curious about everything that that board holds? And now you've completely locked it away from them.

So what the actual ****?! You might as well just lock the entire IP process behind the membership wall too, lock the library away, and give "guests" access to non-relevant boards only at this rate. Actually there's a thought. Why don't you get rid of guests all together. Cause heaven knows by the time this year is up, the only people who are going to have any true access to anything relevant at all are those who are willing to become members.

I can't even believe that you truly decided locking that board away was really the best option. Not after you promised to open it up. For the record, y'all might want to review that IP lesson about what a "cult" is. . .

And y'know what...I think I finally get why people say TOTJO really isn't about Jediism and growth anymore... So screw it. Just screw it.

Your message appears to imply that the interactions between guests and members in the forum are a good representation of what jediism is about.

More like between those that have studied Jediism to some extent and those that have come here to learn about it... Yes, that is a core of what Jediism is about. "Ignorance, yet Knowledge" and all that...

ren wrote: Your message appears to imply that the interactions between guests and members in the forum are a good representation of what jediism is about.

Your message appears to imply that you either know better, or get to decide on behalf of members who cast no vote to have you represent them, what a good representation of what Jediism is about either is, or should be.

Gisteron wrote:

ren wrote: Your message appears to imply that the interactions between guests and members in the forum are a good representation of what jediism is about.

Your message appears to imply that you either know better, or get to decide on behalf of members who cast no vote to have you represent them, what a good representation of what Jediism is about either is, or should be.

I am not a representative. And yes i do know better: this is a jedi temple, not an alternative to facebook, and certainly not a recycling center, so we are most definitely putting an end to the fly-tipping.

More like between those that have studied Jediism to some extent and those that have come here to learn about it... Yes, that is a core of what Jediism is about. "Ignorance, yet Knowledge" and all that...

You and i are in complete agreement. We do want people who are interested in jediism to be able to learn about it and engage with people who actively practice it. Unfortunately some 'guests' have outstayed their welcome and are actively preventing the peaceful practice of our religion in our own temple. We'll happily accept any help you offer.

ren wrote: Unfortunately some 'guests' have outstayed their welcome and are actively preventing the peaceful practice of our religion in our own temple.

Oh ren, you are my hero for your ability to passively aggressively reach out across the keyboard and slap an entire temple group in the face, your best attempt to aggressively polarize one group against others and start yet another war. Good job Jedi, you are well trained.

And the fact you have supporters like arisaig is no surprise and it seems even new knights like Thomas have been well indoctrinated. And yes I have the courage to identify those people I find disappointment in by name and I also have the courage to face them and work out the issue. Do you?