Why so many people become disappointed with this community

This post goes back to the original topic of this thread....

So at first I made it a point to stay out of this thread because I had allowed it to become a point of emotion for me.....dumb I know......

Anyway, I made it a point to read similar threads going back all the way to 2015 so far. I just want to list some similarities between them all that I have found and that deserve consideration.

1. All member of different ranks want to see leadership with "objectivity", this is a fallacy at best as true objectivity does not and can never exist. It doesn't happen everyone has an angle with which they see and many are searching for one to change too.
2. Every one wants more transparency, which in general is good, however, then we will see more conflict of sorts as Transparency can not be necessarily approached with objectivity.
3. A lot of people want a more defined definition of what they are looking for here, how it works and why it works that way.
4. People want to see more accountability, again though where will the line be drawn accountability towards one person will look like something to one person and something completely different to another.
5. Most people want everything NOW, that's not how anything with substance works.
6. Most people want some people to be more than people,or more than who they are.
7. The only one that could (I emphasize COULD) be possible is that a lot of people want to see discourse on a courteous level that does not get to the point of personal degradation.
This is all I have been able to pull so far and I give a lot of credit to Senan and Ren and other council members for being pretty forth coming in previous threads that extend back. Does that mean everything is answered or fine, no. However, it shows a willingness to continue moving towards some of these goals, which for the record will probably not have the outcomes people expect them too..........
Anyway, these are just my 2 cents on what I have been reading over the course of several days, if you can answer or find solutions to thee issues that would actually work then you my friends are a better PERSON than I.

Much Love, Respect, and Peace,
Kobos

Thanks again, Senan.

And hopefully the end result will be the same (ie, giving guests the ability to post there.)

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: We could deduct from the announcement that it was a council of 13 or less, but i cannot confirm that, and some of the newer councillors misunderstood our voting procedures until recently, so i simply do not know.

Just to state the obvious, the council in the entire time I've been registered on this website has NEVER been more then 13, the count in the announcement would easily match the replies in the council thread of that vote, it was a huge uproar that drew this vote out in the first place and everyone was so adamant that it needed to be in, council included, so why the sudden need for procedure review and a question of confirming how many people were in council at any given point in time....It just smells like there's something else going on not being said. I doubt that something this obvious would be so questionable?

I just wanted to point out your memory might be playing tricks on you because I think we have been 14, but I don't know for how long... And You have at least been mistaken about one thing in this thread: You weren't the only councillor to oppose it, and you in fact miscounted it, back then. That's one thing our records certainly show.

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: We could deduct from the announcement that it was a council of 13 or less, but i cannot confirm that, and some of the newer councillors misunderstood our voting procedures until recently, so i simply do not know.

Just to state the obvious, the council in the entire time I've been registered on this website has NEVER been more then 13, the count in the announcement would easily match the replies in the council thread of that vote, it was a huge uproar that drew this vote out in the first place and everyone was so adamant that it needed to be in, council included, so why the sudden need for procedure review and a question of confirming how many people were in council at any given point in time....It just smells like there's something else going on not being said. I doubt that something this obvious would be so questionable?

I just wanted to point out your memory might be playing tricks on you because I think we have been 14, but I don't know for how long... And You have at least been mistaken about one thing in this thread: You weren't the only councillor to oppose it, and you in fact miscounted it, back then. That's one thing our records certainly show.

I know who else voted against and if you look at the time stamps from the announcement to when it happened that came in as a change from abstain to no after the announcement, which came out shortly after the majority vote at the time was in favor. I remember having that conversation vividly.

ren wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: We could deduct from the announcement that it was a council of 13 or less, but i cannot confirm that, and some of the newer councillors misunderstood our voting procedures until recently, so i simply do not know.

Just to state the obvious, the council in the entire time I've been registered on this website has NEVER been more then 13, the count in the announcement would easily match the replies in the council thread of that vote, it was a huge uproar that drew this vote out in the first place and everyone was so adamant that it needed to be in, council included, so why the sudden need for procedure review and a question of confirming how many people were in council at any given point in time....It just smells like there's something else going on not being said. I doubt that something this obvious would be so questionable?

I just wanted to point out your memory might be playing tricks on you because I think we have been 14, but I don't know for how long... And You have at least been mistaken about one thing in this thread: You weren't the only councillor to oppose it, and you in fact miscounted it, back then. That's one thing our records certainly show.

Also as of this post:

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/offices/120309-kit-jl-spinner-senan-atticus-tellahane-councillor-granted-2017

It was 13, then I resigned, there has been no other announcements of anyone becoming a councilmember that I've seen unless I've missed it or its in a section of the forums not visible to guests...

The FAQ which is out-dated has the following list:
1 Adhara (Knight's Secretary)
2 Alexandre Orion (Education Administration)
3 Atticus (Council Secretary, Secretary for the Clergy)
4 Br. John (Founder, President, Patriarch)
5 Carlos (Associate Pastor)
6 JLSpinner (Security Officer)
7 Kit
8 MadHatter (Vice President Of Membership Affairs)
9 Neaj Pa Bol (Matriarch)
10 ren (Systems Administrator)
11 Rosalyn J (Pastor)
12 Senan (Security Officer)
13 Tellahane (Associate System Administrator)

So who is the two new people on the council?

The doctrine is there as a standard of what we all as a temple/church mutually agree upon. I encourage you to study for yourselves I reviewed our doctrine recently it was very enjoyable.

On the other hand we also, have in the option of your own personal beliefs and convictions your path is your own! So, to say that we need to get rid of the doctrine is a ridiculous statement and a incomplete thought.

Sven One wrote: The doctrine is there as a standard of what we all as a temple/church mutually agree upon. I encourage you to study for yourselves I reviewed our doctrine recently it was very enjoyable.

On the other hand we also, have in the option of your own personal beliefs and convictions your path is your own! So, to say that we need to get rid of the doctrine is a ridiculous statement and a incomplete thought.

Have you read people's IP several members disagree with parts of it, and so I don't think saying "we all" is appropriate.

And did you read the last of my comments that was in the vein of what you just said. Yes, I read people's IPs including your own if you recall. I am not being unfair with my statements Tellahane but, I stand for the doctrine but, I also have my own view points as well aside from the doctrine. Read my posts sometime.

So, earlier I made a post laying out some reoccurring themes that have been said out in repeated threads like this over time. As we know many have had consequences to individuals we know and setting those feelings aside, I admit to falling prey to hoping that just maybe, we as a group might look at those deeply and really consider what we could air here as plausible solutions to these issues we keep repeating. Maybe, break the cycle, it will always be a cycle but chipping away at one or more of these may help us alleviate some of the strife, struggle and suffering (if that's the word for it) these have cause over their repeated calls to action.

Tellahane has laid out a solution in a form to one about how we can define something better in the terms as those whom are new here so they may see things a little less blindly.

I hope this thread can be used for us to truly and deeply consider some of these and maybe have some solutions or at least working progress towards something that makes the community better. Continuously arguing details seems almost pointless and less and less discourse and more finger pointing. it's like watching the US congress on any issue (if there is someone to strive to be better than it should at least be them).

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Kobos wrote: So, earlier I made a post laying out some reoccurring themes that have been said out in repeated threads like this over time. As we know many have had consequences to individuals we know and setting those feelings aside, I admit to falling prey to hoping that just maybe, we as a group might look at those deeply and really consider what we could air here as plausible solutions to these issues we keep repeating. Maybe, break the cycle, it will always be a cycle but chipping away at one or more of these may help us alleviate some of the strife, struggle and suffering (if that's the word for it) these have cause over their repeated calls to action.

Tellahane has laid out a solution in a form to one about how we can define something better in the terms as those whom are new here so they may see things a little less blindly.

I hope this thread can be used for us to truly and deeply consider some of these and maybe have some solutions or at least working progress towards something that makes the community better. Continuously arguing details seems almost pointless and less and less discourse and more finger pointing. it's like watching the US congress on any issue (if there is someone to strive to be better than it should at least be them).

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

This ^^^^ I'm gonna be done with this thread for awhile, can only beat your head against the wall for so long before needing to get a pack of ice or frozen pea's and spend some time in recovery

It would take me far too long to review this entire thread, but I'll direct my attention to the original question posed: Why are so many people becoming disappointed with this community?

I can tell you why, though "why" is a question deeper than its answer. The problem is limitation. This Temple doesn't let people explore the Force on their own, to become self-sufficient, which is, in the real world, what a Jedi must be. Instead, you force people through an Initiation Program. Then they have to wait to be made a novice. Then they have to wait to become an apprentice—if it is even possible to find someone to train them. Need I go on? You all know how this website works.

The problem, again, is limitation. If this Temple would stop looking at itself in the mirror and start looking out a window, giving people freedom to expand their knowledge of the Force through whatever means they deem necessary and comfortable, rather than shoving everyone into a mold, people would find the liberation that comes from KNOWING THE FORCE, instead of knowing this website.

I learned everything I needed to know ON MY OWN. I had a mentor at one time, but after he disappeared, I discovered how much more I could develop by myself. But I learned from everyone around me, and from hundreds of books and sources. This freedom allowed me to grow into the best Jedi I could have possibly been, that I couldn't have if I was stuck in a system like the one you have here.

The Jedi of fiction may have had one central location to learn from, but this is Earth, not Star Wars.

Streen wrote: It would take me far too long to review this entire thread, but I'll direct my attention to the original question posed: Why are so many people becoming disappointed with this community?

I can tell you why, though "why" is a question deeper than its answer. The problem is limitation. This Temple doesn't let people explore the Force on their own, to become self-sufficient, which is, in the real world, what a Jedi must be. Instead, you force people through an Initiation Program. Then they have to wait to be made a novice. Then they have to wait to become an apprentice—if it is even possible to find someone to train them. Need I go on? You all know how this website works.

The problem, again, is limitation. If this Temple would stop looking at itself in the mirror and start looking out a window, giving people freedom to expand their knowledge of the Force through whatever means they deem necessary and comfortable, rather than shoving everyone into a mold, people would find the liberation that comes from KNOWING THE FORCE, instead of knowing this website.

I learned everything I needed to know ON MY OWN. I had a mentor at one time, but after he disappeared, I discovered how much more I could develop by myself. But I learned from everyone around me, and from hundreds of books and sources. This freedom allowed me to grow into the best Jedi I could have possibly been, that I couldn't have if I was stuck in a system like the one you have here.

The Jedi of fiction may have had one central location to learn from, but this is Earth, not Star Wars.

*My own opinion*

That’s the part I don’t get- there is no limit and the learning here is self paced. Here, if you wanna learn - do it. Self responsibility plays a huge part. There’s a lot of blaming and not a lot of discovering at times. I can, and so can others , claim this place is a wonderful thing in my life. Seems to be this vs. that and at some point it’s gotta be evident right? What one person claims to be the inhibitor others claim to be the freedom. It’s how - you - perceive and use the tool. I can’t answer ever for how others perceive things because there is a whole array of avalible possibilities. To just say - why people are disappointed is to reveal that is the focus. There are countless threads that have stated more than once - how this place has bettersed me- how I’ve grown here or how I have discovered freedoms - just like people say - how I hate / love Cambell or how I - fill in the blank about Watts . All in all we are entitled to our own opinions and be it know they are how we express our own life’s - never anyone else’s. In life... for every yes you can find a no and vice versa. Enjoy and learn or - don’t and gripe. Or log on or log off... noodles - don’t noodles - at the end of the day it’s our choice, and some times I’m Kinna glad it’s up to me- not someone else any more!

I think Carlos hits on an important point here. This place has a lesson plan and a degree scheme including the Initiate Program and Apprenticeship, but those are only necessary for attaining rank here in this specific corner of the Jedi community. There is nothing stopping someone from reading every single resource available in our library at whatever pace they would like and doing whatever they will with that information. There is nothing stopping someone from reading other IP journals visible to members and learning from the responses of others. There is even very little stopping a person from calling themselves a Grand Master Wizard Jedi of the Republic outside of these walls. We don't limit anybody unless you are willing to allow those limits to be imposed upon you willingly.

In short, if you're here for one of our shiny badges or you want to be a Licensed Minister of TOTJO, you have to complete the lessons required here. Otherwise, you are free to be whatever kind of Jedi you want to be so long as you are not disrupting this Temple and our goals of teaching.

It all circles back to the original point of Kyrin's OP: expectations.

We each come here with our own expectations, a complicated imagery of what "Jedi" is/should-be and what TotJO is/should-be, and then project that image outwardly. Confirmation of our image satisfies whatever unmet need we have for validation, while dissonance jolts us.

The question is: what do we do when we receive that jolt? Do we run from it because it is uncomfortable? Do we prepare to attack it, silence it because it does not fit our standards, in the name of peace? Or do we see in it an opportunity to explore it, and learn something new about ourselves?

Kobos wrote: So, earlier I made a post laying out some reoccurring themes that have been said out in repeated threads like this over time...

...Tellahane has laid out a solution in a form to one about how we can define something better in the terms as those whom are new here so they may see things a little less blindly...

...I hope this thread can be used for us to truly and deeply consider some of these and maybe have some solutions or at least working progress towards something that makes the community better.

The problem is that this has been tried many many times and no fruit comes of it. The reason for this is evidenced in this very thread by Tellahane and Streens comments. Tellahane wants more rigid restriction and adherence to doctrine and Streen wants less. The lesson to learn is that you will never come up with a system that all will always be happy with.

The only real solution is hinted at in the idea Tellahane layed out and that is better descriptions of what this place is and is not. And that was the point of my original post in this thread as well. It is not the way this place functions and the processes it entails that is the issue. The issue is peoples expectations of what this place should be and their expectations of how others should behave. People come here wanting this place to fulfill some preconceived notion of need in their lives. And that varies greatly according to the individual. Those expectations could include a nirvana of independent thought and resource as Streen wants or it could be monastery of monks all living and confirming to a rigorous set of vows based in common doctrine as Tellahane wants.

And when people come here with a notion of what they think this place is and begin interacting they get hurt and disappointed because that notion get shattered and then they blame others for that failure. And the reactions to that pain are many. Some quit, others resign, some go about a fight to restructure this place to that idea they think it should be.

The problem is that the failure they are perceiving is not this places and its not other people. The failure is their own because what they are failing to realize is that this place is not just one thing. It is actually that nirvana and that monastery both in one entity, as well as a myriad of other things. Its what ever you want to make it because this place is not designed to conform to any single group expectation, its designed for those that come here with no expectation that can take what they need from this place and leave what they do not. And in that process live and work along side others of different philosophy and be ok with how they interpret this place in that journey they are on. Is that not the very charge of a Jedi? Is that not the very mission of this place? Learning and teaching acceptance and cooperation and harmony with all walks of life that are not harming others, whether you agree with it or not?

Manu wrote: Or do we see in it an opportunity to explore it, and learn something new about ourselves?

A wise man Manu is. This should be the key here, we should ask ourselves as individuals, and as a community and in the very least shouldn't we be trying to put together some forms of solutions or at least airing them for consideration?

I will admit to falling prey to my expectations entirely to much on this topic, and in that there needs to be some self reflection. We are however, running in circles consistently over extended periods of time and it would benefit us all to really consider that (myself included).

Kyrin, I believe you are absolutely correct, I do in that sense though think airing out some of the individual expectations in a way that makes them considerable to anyone so that they can see in the end it is what you make of it, would be an ideal opportunity for community growth. Again, this is my perspective on this issue so I could be wrong but this is the process we are already going through. It doesn't necessarily need to be the leadership that does it either no structure HAS to be changed but this has the potential to change some or at the very least make considerations of such possible.

Much Peace, Love and Respect,
Kobos

I know who else voted against and if you look at the time stamps from the announcement to when it happened that came in as a change from abstain to no after the announcement, which came out shortly after the majority vote at the time was in favor. I remember having that conversation vividly.

I looked, that's why i told you you made a mistake. So, once again, you are remembering things wrong. That councillor you forgot cast her vote before the announcement, she didnt change it after and is not changing it now either.

You also forgot that zenchi used to be a knight adviser before you resigned, so you are wrong about the count as well.

Ren,

With all due respect was this needed? The decision was made, can only be changed by you guys (the council) and is in discussion. We had finally moved past the discussion of the details around it. I understand needing to be heard but I feel that part of the discussion could have died in peace at this point.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

A majority of councillors has decided to remove read and write access to the jediism category to guests. No councillor voted in favour of retaining the read-only system we have now, and no councillor voted to open the jediism category to guests.

I'd shake hands and offer my congratulations, but my palms are busy covering my face.

Kobos: i like to set the record straight. I have no hard feelings towards tellahane, i wish he hadn't left, but he is wrong, so i am informing him.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane wants more rigid restriction and adherence to doctrine

It's not actually, not for some time now...

ren wrote: You also forgot that zenchi used to be a knight adviser before you resigned, so you are wrong about the count as well.

Knight adviser is not a Councillor, they also did not have access to certain council forum area's either, votes were optional at the time as to whether they included the advisers or not at the time this vote happened, I don't believe this was one of those. There were plenty of votes that did not include the knight advisers...so no in my mind i did not "count" them as "Councillors" because of that. Not that I'm degrading the role of knight adviser.