Why so many people become disappointed with this community

It would take me far too long to review this entire thread, but I'll direct my attention to the original question posed: Why are so many people becoming disappointed with this community?

I can tell you why, though "why" is a question deeper than its answer. The problem is limitation. This Temple doesn't let people explore the Force on their own, to become self-sufficient, which is, in the real world, what a Jedi must be. Instead, you force people through an Initiation Program. Then they have to wait to be made a novice. Then they have to wait to become an apprentice—if it is even possible to find someone to train them. Need I go on? You all know how this website works.

The problem, again, is limitation. If this Temple would stop looking at itself in the mirror and start looking out a window, giving people freedom to expand their knowledge of the Force through whatever means they deem necessary and comfortable, rather than shoving everyone into a mold, people would find the liberation that comes from KNOWING THE FORCE, instead of knowing this website.

I learned everything I needed to know ON MY OWN. I had a mentor at one time, but after he disappeared, I discovered how much more I could develop by myself. But I learned from everyone around me, and from hundreds of books and sources. This freedom allowed me to grow into the best Jedi I could have possibly been, that I couldn't have if I was stuck in a system like the one you have here.

The Jedi of fiction may have had one central location to learn from, but this is Earth, not Star Wars.

Streen wrote: It would take me far too long to review this entire thread, but I'll direct my attention to the original question posed: Why are so many people becoming disappointed with this community?

I can tell you why, though "why" is a question deeper than its answer. The problem is limitation. This Temple doesn't let people explore the Force on their own, to become self-sufficient, which is, in the real world, what a Jedi must be. Instead, you force people through an Initiation Program. Then they have to wait to be made a novice. Then they have to wait to become an apprentice—if it is even possible to find someone to train them. Need I go on? You all know how this website works.

The problem, again, is limitation. If this Temple would stop looking at itself in the mirror and start looking out a window, giving people freedom to expand their knowledge of the Force through whatever means they deem necessary and comfortable, rather than shoving everyone into a mold, people would find the liberation that comes from KNOWING THE FORCE, instead of knowing this website.

I learned everything I needed to know ON MY OWN. I had a mentor at one time, but after he disappeared, I discovered how much more I could develop by myself. But I learned from everyone around me, and from hundreds of books and sources. This freedom allowed me to grow into the best Jedi I could have possibly been, that I couldn't have if I was stuck in a system like the one you have here.

The Jedi of fiction may have had one central location to learn from, but this is Earth, not Star Wars.

*My own opinion*

That’s the part I don’t get- there is no limit and the learning here is self paced. Here, if you wanna learn - do it. Self responsibility plays a huge part. There’s a lot of blaming and not a lot of discovering at times. I can, and so can others , claim this place is a wonderful thing in my life. Seems to be this vs. that and at some point it’s gotta be evident right? What one person claims to be the inhibitor others claim to be the freedom. It’s how - you - perceive and use the tool. I can’t answer ever for how others perceive things because there is a whole array of avalible possibilities. To just say - why people are disappointed is to reveal that is the focus. There are countless threads that have stated more than once - how this place has bettersed me- how I’ve grown here or how I have discovered freedoms - just like people say - how I hate / love Cambell or how I - fill in the blank about Watts . All in all we are entitled to our own opinions and be it know they are how we express our own life’s - never anyone else’s. In life... for every yes you can find a no and vice versa. Enjoy and learn or - don’t and gripe. Or log on or log off... noodles - don’t noodles - at the end of the day it’s our choice, and some times I’m Kinna glad it’s up to me- not someone else any more!

I think Carlos hits on an important point here. This place has a lesson plan and a degree scheme including the Initiate Program and Apprenticeship, but those are only necessary for attaining rank here in this specific corner of the Jedi community. There is nothing stopping someone from reading every single resource available in our library at whatever pace they would like and doing whatever they will with that information. There is nothing stopping someone from reading other IP journals visible to members and learning from the responses of others. There is even very little stopping a person from calling themselves a Grand Master Wizard Jedi of the Republic outside of these walls. We don't limit anybody unless you are willing to allow those limits to be imposed upon you willingly.

In short, if you're here for one of our shiny badges or you want to be a Licensed Minister of TOTJO, you have to complete the lessons required here. Otherwise, you are free to be whatever kind of Jedi you want to be so long as you are not disrupting this Temple and our goals of teaching.

It all circles back to the original point of Kyrin's OP: expectations.

We each come here with our own expectations, a complicated imagery of what "Jedi" is/should-be and what TotJO is/should-be, and then project that image outwardly. Confirmation of our image satisfies whatever unmet need we have for validation, while dissonance jolts us.

The question is: what do we do when we receive that jolt? Do we run from it because it is uncomfortable? Do we prepare to attack it, silence it because it does not fit our standards, in the name of peace? Or do we see in it an opportunity to explore it, and learn something new about ourselves?

Kobos wrote: So, earlier I made a post laying out some reoccurring themes that have been said out in repeated threads like this over time...

...Tellahane has laid out a solution in a form to one about how we can define something better in the terms as those whom are new here so they may see things a little less blindly...

...I hope this thread can be used for us to truly and deeply consider some of these and maybe have some solutions or at least working progress towards something that makes the community better.

The problem is that this has been tried many many times and no fruit comes of it. The reason for this is evidenced in this very thread by Tellahane and Streens comments. Tellahane wants more rigid restriction and adherence to doctrine and Streen wants less. The lesson to learn is that you will never come up with a system that all will always be happy with.

The only real solution is hinted at in the idea Tellahane layed out and that is better descriptions of what this place is and is not. And that was the point of my original post in this thread as well. It is not the way this place functions and the processes it entails that is the issue. The issue is peoples expectations of what this place should be and their expectations of how others should behave. People come here wanting this place to fulfill some preconceived notion of need in their lives. And that varies greatly according to the individual. Those expectations could include a nirvana of independent thought and resource as Streen wants or it could be monastery of monks all living and confirming to a rigorous set of vows based in common doctrine as Tellahane wants.

And when people come here with a notion of what they think this place is and begin interacting they get hurt and disappointed because that notion get shattered and then they blame others for that failure. And the reactions to that pain are many. Some quit, others resign, some go about a fight to restructure this place to that idea they think it should be.

The problem is that the failure they are perceiving is not this places and its not other people. The failure is their own because what they are failing to realize is that this place is not just one thing. It is actually that nirvana and that monastery both in one entity, as well as a myriad of other things. Its what ever you want to make it because this place is not designed to conform to any single group expectation, its designed for those that come here with no expectation that can take what they need from this place and leave what they do not. And in that process live and work along side others of different philosophy and be ok with how they interpret this place in that journey they are on. Is that not the very charge of a Jedi? Is that not the very mission of this place? Learning and teaching acceptance and cooperation and harmony with all walks of life that are not harming others, whether you agree with it or not?

Manu wrote: Or do we see in it an opportunity to explore it, and learn something new about ourselves?

A wise man Manu is. This should be the key here, we should ask ourselves as individuals, and as a community and in the very least shouldn't we be trying to put together some forms of solutions or at least airing them for consideration?

I will admit to falling prey to my expectations entirely to much on this topic, and in that there needs to be some self reflection. We are however, running in circles consistently over extended periods of time and it would benefit us all to really consider that (myself included).

Kyrin, I believe you are absolutely correct, I do in that sense though think airing out some of the individual expectations in a way that makes them considerable to anyone so that they can see in the end it is what you make of it, would be an ideal opportunity for community growth. Again, this is my perspective on this issue so I could be wrong but this is the process we are already going through. It doesn't necessarily need to be the leadership that does it either no structure HAS to be changed but this has the potential to change some or at the very least make considerations of such possible.

Much Peace, Love and Respect,
Kobos

I know who else voted against and if you look at the time stamps from the announcement to when it happened that came in as a change from abstain to no after the announcement, which came out shortly after the majority vote at the time was in favor. I remember having that conversation vividly.

I looked, that's why i told you you made a mistake. So, once again, you are remembering things wrong. That councillor you forgot cast her vote before the announcement, she didnt change it after and is not changing it now either.

You also forgot that zenchi used to be a knight adviser before you resigned, so you are wrong about the count as well.

Ren,

With all due respect was this needed? The decision was made, can only be changed by you guys (the council) and is in discussion. We had finally moved past the discussion of the details around it. I understand needing to be heard but I feel that part of the discussion could have died in peace at this point.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

A majority of councillors has decided to remove read and write access to the jediism category to guests. No councillor voted in favour of retaining the read-only system we have now, and no councillor voted to open the jediism category to guests.

I'd shake hands and offer my congratulations, but my palms are busy covering my face.

Kobos: i like to set the record straight. I have no hard feelings towards tellahane, i wish he hadn't left, but he is wrong, so i am informing him.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane wants more rigid restriction and adherence to doctrine

It's not actually, not for some time now...

ren wrote: You also forgot that zenchi used to be a knight adviser before you resigned, so you are wrong about the count as well.

Knight adviser is not a Councillor, they also did not have access to certain council forum area's either, votes were optional at the time as to whether they included the advisers or not at the time this vote happened, I don't believe this was one of those. There were plenty of votes that did not include the knight advisers...so no in my mind i did not "count" them as "Councillors" because of that. Not that I'm degrading the role of knight adviser.