Stuff n Things, Or how to get excommunicated and not even know why, lol!

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18 Sep 2018 20:34 - 18 Sep 2018 20:36 #326497 by Avalon
It also says "visible to the world". Private messages are not visible to the world.

They are visible to the intended recipient, the sender, and the admins. Who have the responsibility of protecting the rights of the user.

I have nothing more to say on the matter. I believe my stance is perfectly clear.

The action of reading PMs without an investigative cause or explicit permission is wrong. But then, I think you know that or you wouldn't be defending it so vehemently no that you're being called out on it ... *shrugs*

Like I said, I'm not going to cause trouble of this. I don't expect it to change. At least now it's been explicitly stated that private communications are read through... Now people know. What they do with it is their own business.

Let's get back to the real issue at hand in this thread...

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Last edit: 18 Sep 2018 20:36 by Avalon.
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18 Sep 2018 20:39 #326498 by Zenchi

Senan wrote: I will admit that while other Councillors have made an effort to reach out to Zenchi directly, so far I have not had a conversation with him one-on-one about this. Perhaps I am fearful of what he might have to say about me and my performance here as a Councillor, but that shouldn't stop me from hearing his side of the story directly. I will reach out once I find a way to do so diplomatically and in a way that he and others can trust is genuine. I know there is a lot of suspicion there, and I have to be willing to work through that.


Please, in all due sincerity and politeness, don't...

The time to come chew with me like an adult would have been long before this mess began, or even immediately after the decision was made in the first place...

Instead the whole lot of you let Ren be the one to break the news to me...

I'm really not up to read or have this thread derailed further with all the reasons as to why you haven't, so let's not and say we did, pretty please.....

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18 Sep 2018 20:46 #326500 by Senan

Zenchi wrote:

Senan wrote: I will admit that while other Councillors have made an effort to reach out to Zenchi directly, so far I have not had a conversation with him one-on-one about this. Perhaps I am fearful of what he might have to say about me and my performance here as a Councillor, but that shouldn't stop me from hearing his side of the story directly. I will reach out once I find a way to do so diplomatically and in a way that he and others can trust is genuine. I know there is a lot of suspicion there, and I have to be willing to work through that.


Please, in all due sincerity and politeness, don't...

The time to come chew with me like an adult would have been long before this mess began, or even immediately after the decision was made in the first place...

Instead the whole lot of you let Ren be the one to break the news to me...

I'm really not up to read or have this thread derailed further with all the reasons as to why you haven't, so let's not and say we did, pretty please.....


Fair enough... I did not instigate any of this and aside from any personal failings that prevented me from addressing it with you directly, I chose to respect MadHatter's request to allow him to be the point of communication. I didn't have any control over how others chose to proceed. If you ever want my side of the story, just ask and I will be honest with you. Otherwise, I'll leave it alone.

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18 Sep 2018 21:59 - 18 Sep 2018 21:59 #326513 by Alethea Thompson
@Tellahane

Forget which country you or the server is in, and look at the ethical point of view.

You say it's (paraphrased) "ends justify the means"- by that measure, what makes you any better than Hitler?
Last edit: 18 Sep 2018 21:59 by Alethea Thompson.

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18 Sep 2018 22:31 #326515 by Alethea Thompson
Tellahane and I spoke in another area separately from here. But for anyone that is curious where I was going with this:

If a legitimate concern is brought to the council that may suggest that there is some shady stuff going on, then investigating the PMs available should not be looked at as being a problem. However, if you're simply going through PMs without probable cause- then it's a clear violation of ethical discourse occurring.

Whether the organization is or isn't in one area of the world or another, it is a private organization - whereas laws govern what can and cannot be done by the government. If the PMs were provided as part of an official investigation (read one by police of the government) without a warrant then we would be in some very murky water. But given that it is only for an organization that is volunteer based and you do not pay actual money dues to outside of donation- this group can honestly do whatever they want and not be criminally charged. At the end of the day, the question isn't one of legality, but ethical discourse.
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18 Sep 2018 22:49 #326517 by Senan
As noted in another thread, I also want to share that in any case that might involve criminal activity, we ALWAYS encourage the accuser to contact local law enforcement and allow them to handle the investigation. TOTJO will cooperate with the investigation fully and provide whatever information law enforcement might request from us assuming they provide the appropriate justification or a warrant. We would rather let the professionals conduct the investigation so that we don't screw anything up and jeopardize any eventual legal proceedings that could come from it.

Now... let's get back on the rails of this thread. I'm sure Zenchi would appreciate if we could keep the conversation here involving his original post. If anyone wishes to continue discussing our servers, PMs, investigations, or other security issues, please start a new thread or PM me directly and I will answer to the best of my knowledge. Thank you!

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18 Sep 2018 23:54 #326524 by Br. John
Some of this might have been already been posted but for those concerned and for Zenchi:

Zenchi is not banned. He'll continue to have access as a Guest.

The vote was 6 YES - 4 NO (There are 10 voting Councillors at this time.) Zenchi has the right to know the vote. As this has been made public I'm publishing the vote. I have the right to say how I voted and I was not for this. (Not voting has the same effect as voting NO.) If other Councillors want to say how they voted it's their right.

As this was decided by a simple majority, a simple majority can revoke the excommunication at any time.




This decision was legal but that does not mean it's right.

In my opinion, this shows the need for a By-Law specifically addressing the procedure of excommunication.

Anyone is welcome to make suggestions. I'm in early draft stages of what I'm working on to propose as a By-Law. A By-Law requires a 2/3 vote to pass.

I have in mind a two phase procedure sort of like Texas uses in criminal trials. One phase is a person is accused of something or some things. They must be informed about all the allegations and able to confront accusers and any evidence. If they are found to be guilty of something or some things, then the next phase is deciding the appropriate action. This could be anything from a warning, to a reprimand, a suspension for a period of time, or excommunication. Finding someone guilty could possibly require a 2/3 majority or greater, as could the decision on the action.

According to the Arabic proverb, there are no such things as a Phoenix, a Ghoul, or a True Bosom Friend, but I say to you that I found them all among my neighbors. ~ Kahlil Gibran
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19 Sep 2018 00:00 #326525 by steamboat28

Tellahane wrote:

Reliah wrote: So you’re banning people now for things unbecoming of a Jedi? Banning... not just withholding knighthood or anything like that?

No one is banned, please use appropriate verbiage


Okay, so we all know that I think Words Mean Things™, but this is just Newspeak at this point.

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19 Sep 2018 00:10 #326527 by Br. John

steamboat28 wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Reliah wrote: So you’re banning people now for things unbecoming of a Jedi? Banning... not just withholding knighthood or anything like that?

No one is banned, please use appropriate verbiage


Okay, so we all know that I think Words Mean Things™, but this is just Newspeak at this point.


When an account is blocked the built in function of Joomla labels in as Banned even though it's often a temporary suspension. A person can be 'banned' but still be a member and maintain their rank. An excommunication is the removal of status as a member along with ranks and clerical status but it does not block a persons account. They are still able to login and participate as a guest.

According to the Arabic proverb, there are no such things as a Phoenix, a Ghoul, or a True Bosom Friend, but I say to you that I found them all among my neighbors. ~ Kahlil Gibran

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19 Sep 2018 00:14 #326528 by steamboat28
"Banned" can mean more than just the forums, John. You and I both know that an excommunication isn't just a stripping of membership. It's a banning of concelebration. Let's call this what it is.

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