Stuff n Things, Or how to get excommunicated and not even know why, lol!

I stopped coming here because of bullshit like this. I finally come back and this is the first thing I see!

Remember when it used to be (mostly) new members who got banned? Rather than established, committed, long term members who actually hold rank?

I think it says something about a place when half the people who have been around for the long haul are either walking away or being booted out.

I'm done.

Brick wrote: I stopped coming here because of bullshit like this. I finally come back and this is the first thing I see!

Remember when it used to be (mostly) new members who got banned? Rather than established, committed, long term members who actually hold rank?

I think it says something about a place when half the people who have been around for the long haul are either walking away or being booted out.

I'm done.

Agreed. I came back from a multi-year hiatus hoping things had changed; but I see they haven't. It's just more of the same; petulant, childish behavior.

I believe it calls for another hiatus, if not more.

Yes please, judge books by their covers and make judgments and accusations then claim people are not jedi or follow the code then stomp off as an attempt to be a martyr!

We had such peace in this place for so long. Months of training, happiness, and growth for all involved. I loved it. I spent my time reading journals, reaching out to those that needed help, and focusing on my career, both professionally and as a future Jedi Knight.

And then someone decides to throw some wrenches in the engine. Why are people trying to fix something that wasn't broken? Were you bored? Wanted something to watch while munching popcorn? I look at the wall now and see at least one new person turned away by this sudden onset of drama that did not exist a mere 48 hours ago.

In the end, Zen hasn't been active outside Ava and my own journals, and was content to settle for the role of teacher over anything else. Yes, we brought back another member known for causing trouble, but so far they've seem to have changed in their exile (for now, at least. Its easy to play along short term, so not jumping to conclusions either way).

But, as it stands, I've STILL yet to be given evidence that Zen encouraged myself or Ava to bully people. STILL. Which means at least ONE of that list is false, which calls the rest into question. If you have all the problems to easily found, why have we not been provided with any evidence of such?

I dunno. This whole situation reeks of trying to cause problems where there were none for ages. The temple was quiet, and now people are pointing fingers and demanding justices and injustices either way while the those that truly need our help, those coming in, are fleeing before such drama.

You are not to be given evidence arisaig. Your case will be discussed separately from zenchi's. We are first giving zenchi the opportunity to complete your training to his satisfaction, but it is doubtful he will see you knighted based on degree work and his recommendation alone. This matter will be handled when the time comes, if you will it.

Although zenchi made this conversation public, the goal is to make arrangements for orderly withdrawal, as he may no longer speak as a knight or member of the order, yet has some unfinished business to attend to.

While comments by ava and ari are understandably charged and biased, the random garbage others have been spewing out has no place here, and is rather ill-informed. We mind ours, soleirolia soleirolii.

My two cents..for what’s its worth.

I have a different perspective here than most. Being a former soldier, I’m very used to following my leaders without question. In the army, if your given an order you follow it. End of discussion. The end result of following that order is what gives you FAITH in your leaders ability to lead. You don’t ask for proof that there’s a good reason to do what you’ve been directed to do. And why is most certainly a question that you never ask. And all of that is for VERY good reason. Leaders are leaders because someone put them in that position. Things are classified by the military for good reasons too. Not everyone needs to know why we’re gonna take over some hill. But as a soldier you learn to trust that there are good reasons even if you don’t know what they are.

How that’s applicable here...if your going to be a member here and plan to try to progress the ONLY way that’s going to happen is that you have to trust your leaders here. Weather you agree with the councils decision or not, it is what it is. And no amount of debating on this or any other thread will make the council suddenly change its mind. To the best of my knowledge the council is not elected by us. They are appointed by other members of the council. I just don’t understand why everyone seems to not grasp that. The council are not “servants of the people”( granted certain positions may serve a specific purpose).They are in therory atelast our leaders. What they (as a whole) say, goes. Being an apprentice here, means that I have chosen to trust not only my TM, but the council as well. And if I ever find myself not trusting my leaders here, then here is not where I should be.

I have a lot of respect for zenchi, and both of his apprentices! They have been nothing but helpful to me. And while I may disagree personally with the councils decision here, I also understand that for everything I know about this situation, there is probably 100 that I don’t. But I must keep FAITH that the council (as a whole) has reasons for doing what they did, even if I don’t know what they are. FAITH doesn’t require proof. I have no doubts that there are things happening behind the scenes... where IMO they should be.

Zenchi is it my deepest hope that you appeal all of this with the council, and they reinstate you. If they choose not to then IMO the temple will have lost a good knight , teacher and friend.

I have thought long and hard about how to respond here. I can say that this was a vote that I was not happy with. This was an outcome that I and others attempted to avoid. I truly do not enjoy seeing such turmoil in the Temple and such events feel like a failure on my part. For any failure or let down in leadership on my part I do apologize.

Zero Storm wrote: My two cents..for what’s its worth.

I have a different perspective here than most. Being a former soldier, I’m very used to following my leaders without question. In the army, if your given an order you follow it. End of discussion. The end result of following that order is what gives you FAITH in your leaders ability to lead. You don’t ask for proof that there’s a good reason to do what you’ve been directed to do. And why is most certainly a question that you never ask. And all of that is for VERY good reason. Leaders are leaders because someone put them in that position. Things are classified by the military for good reasons too. Not everyone needs to know why we’re gonna take over some hill. But as a soldier you learn to trust that there are good reasons even if you don’t know what they are.

How that’s applicable here...if your going to be a member here and plan to try to progress the ONLY way that’s going to happen is that you have to trust your leaders here. Weather you agree with the councils decision or not, it is what it is. And no amount of debating on this or any other thread will make the council suddenly change its mind. To the best of my knowledge the council is not elected by us. They are appointed by other members of the council. I just don’t understand why everyone seems to not grasp that. The council are not “servants of the people”( granted certain positions may serve a specific purpose).They are in therory atelast our leaders. What they (as a whole) say, goes. Being an apprentice here, means that I have chosen to trust not only my TM, but the council as well. And if I ever find myself not trusting my leaders here, then here is not where I should be.

I have a lot of respect for zenchi, and both of his apprentices! They have been nothing but helpful to me. And while I may disagree personally with the councils decision here, I also understand that for everything I know about this situation, there is probably 100 that I don’t. But I must keep FAITH that the council (as a whole) has reasons for doing what they did, even if I don’t know what they are. FAITH doesn’t require proof. I have no doubts that there are things happening behind the scenes... where IMO they should be.

Zenchi is it my deepest hope that you appeal all of this with the council, and they reinstate you. If they choose not to then IMO the temple will have lost a good knight , teacher and friend.

I'm not going to pick at this and point out all the things you've missed going on here in the last few months, would be pretty pointless...

Some things are worth fighting for. There's a time to stand down, refrain from acting. And then, there's a time to take a stand, & fight for what you believe in. Hopefully one day you'll understand...

I'm all out of Faith......

I hope people read through this very carefully to see that the people who run this site have admitted to reading PM's (but don't worry it's for your own good ), that a non-Jedi can be part of the council, that some information is best kept from you (again - for your own good), and that they can pick and choose who to make examples of regardless of how much time has passed.

To Ren: we've spoken several times about why you wouldn't take the oath, why you haven't done the IP, how you haven't had a totjo apprenticeship/knighting, etc. When I was approaching people for ideas on who I'd like as a training master you told me you couldn't for all those reasons. Yeah, this is a he said, she said moment and I have no proof of any of this.
Not long ago your status bar read "member" for all of these reasons.
As far as my own oath goes - that was never revoked. I simply asked that my status bar was changed from Knight to guest. As I said in my previous post, Knighthood is something that can't be given or taken away from you and I have never been a Knight, not in my mind or in my heart. It's something I struggled with frequently because it's something I take very seriously and believe holds a lot of value and meaning.
This isn't really about you or me on a personal level, though - only an administrative one. If things have changed since then I would have expected it to be obvious as oaths, ip journals, and apprenticeships are normally fairly public things.

Tellhane: you're right. No one is banned. Yet.
Some of the things you touched on you're not entirely informed on and I hold none of that against you in the least. Like I said, things have been hidden away and that's not your fault. However, the last part - about how not all of the council agreed (on Zenchi's Knighting) and how there are different people in now - that is also irrelevant and I'm sure you understand why and how. It would be similar to a jury finding someone not guilty of something and then another jury and new judge coming along trying to convict them for the very thing they were pardoned of just because they weren't the ones involved in the pardoning. That's not how things work. And if it is, that's another red flag.
I like that you were able to add more to the things I said that you agreed with. I appreciate you enhancing them by adding your own views to them. The part, "....I've expressed many times the failure that is the knighting and ranking system here so I don't feel I need to re-iterate." - that's what I mean when I say "the people who stay and fight". People like you. So thank you and good luck.

This temple will always hold a special place in my heart and I will always hope the best for it and the Jedi within...
I hope things get better soon.

This is not meant to be argumentative, but simply to clarify a few things in your statement.

Reliah wrote: I hope people read through this very carefully to see that the people who run this site have admitted to reading PM's (but don't worry it's for your own good ), that a non-Jedi can be part of the council, that some information is best kept from you (again - for your own good), and that they can pick and choose who to make examples of regardless of how much time has passed.

To be clear, a very select few have access to PM's, not the entire Council, and those that do only access them if there is a specific complaint made that requires investigation. I am not one of those people, by the way. These instances most often involve an accusation of inappropriate and possibly illegal behavior that we are obligated to look into.

Reliah wrote: Tellhane: you're right. No one is banned. Yet.
Some of the things you touched on you're not entirely informed on and I hold none of that against you in the least. Like I said, things have been hidden away and that's not your fault. However, the last part - about how not all of the council agreed (on Zenchi's Knighting) and how there are different people in now - that is also irrelevant and I'm sure you understand why and how. It would be similar to a jury finding someone not guilty of something and then another jury and new judge coming along trying to convict them for the very thing they were pardoned of just because they weren't the ones involved in the pardoning. That's not how things work. And if it is, that's another red flag.

This isn't an entirely fair comparison. You are correct that past behavior is now being judged by a group of Councillors that were not Councillors at the time of Zenchi's Knighting or some of the past conflicts, but the current decision is being weighed by each of us on the pattern of repeating behavior including recent events. As a personal example, I was not a Councillor or even a member when Zenchi started here and then left the Temple for a while. I don't pretend to know the details of what went down, but I was a Knight Adviser and got caught up in the mix with him later over the avatar issue. That event could inform my vote because I was there, but not the previous one. It is different for each Councillor, and each of us has to weigh the evidence we see and decide what is based on evidence and what we can be confident in believing. We're also human, and our own biases and opinions do come into play. That is what has made this whole process very difficult for all of us on Council as a whole. It came down to a vote with the majority opinion becoming the judgment, and per our charter and bylaws, we are bound by that decision whether we individually agree with it or not.

Reliah wrote: This temple will always hold a special place in my heart and I will always hope the best for it and the Jedi within...
I hope things get better soon.

I know it doesn't always seem like it, but this place is special to Councillors too, and we work very hard to make it better everyday. We are volunteers and we will make mistakes, but everything we do is because we also hope for the best for this place and its members.

Maybe a lot less of this nonsense would happen if upon requests for evidence of misbehaviour, some would be provided, if not to the public, then to an elected independent party. With how things currently work, I don't see it becoming acceptable any time soon, that users respected and valued for the interesting and controversial discussions - and, on some occasions, heated debates, too - are just being un-peopled for unspecific or long lapsed reasons, by parties unnamed who are judges, jurors, and executioners, that needn't and want not provide any records of anything they do to neither the public, nor elected representatives of the public, nor can be themselves elected into or out of office. What you could do, of course, is just rid this place of people with questions or concerns or objections, along with any trace of their ever being around. But as it stands, this cannot keep happening over, and over, and over again, no matter what week of the year you log on to check out what's new.

Senan, I don't read things from you as argumentative and appreciate you taking the time to share your insights.

The PM thing came up because of things that happened in the past that were real and extremely inappropriate as well as Tellhanes comment, which was... unnerving? It's something that has happened more than once and has caused huge issues... to a whole lot of people. I know not all councilors have access to that area and am also positive that even if some of them did, they would use it the way you described. My intent with this particular example is going to be mostly lost, I think. What you said is exactly why I used it... it should've been easy to deal with and pinpoint. It was a much bigger deal than this.
So yes, not all people who have access to that information will do what has been done.
And not all councilors have access to that information at all.

I also understand that in order for a complete picture to be made it needs to be looked at as a whole. I just hope the information being given is accurate, fair, and as unbiased as possible. Yes, we are all human and are obviously going to have our own ideas an opinions, but I hope that things are looked at as objectively as possible and from as many different angles as possible. I also hope that whatever happened before a Knighting wouldn't be used against a person in and of itself, if that makes sense.

I've been a counselor - very briefly - but long enough... and I don't envy your position. I know most of you are there because you have earned it, have proven yourselves and your dedication to the temple and the Jedi here, and take your jobs very seriously and carefully. Most of you continue your studies, take your positions seriously, and strive to become better Jedi constantly. It's exhausting and I acknowledge those efforts and thank you, sincerely, for it. I know the amount of time and effort some of you put in would be equal to a part-time job, at least, and that you get nothing in return except knowing that you are doing everything you can to make this place everything it could be. Well that.. and a bunch of angry people who (think they) know how to do your job better than you do.


Edit: I came here to support a long time fellow Jedi - a person I consider a friend. I have seen his growth and how much he has changed over the years, the struggles he's had.. the leaps and bounds he has made, and the current intentions of his being here. He is also a human with opinions and ideas and sometimes those might not be what anyone else would do and he might get things wrong from time to time - but he always evolves, changes.. and he has worked his butt off to get to where he is. This means something to him... this is something that is deeply part of who he is (from my perspective).. and I have been here through all the pitfalls, lessons, his return... his sincerity..
Just have a conversation with him. One on one. Before you decide on anything. That's all I'm asking.

Reliah wrote: The PM thing came up because of things that happened in the past that were real and extremely inappropriate as well as Tellhanes comment, which was... unnerving?

At this point this could probably be moved to a separate discussion but to make a point, if you pay attention(at least here in the US I can't speak for other countries) to what private information of yours changes hands through -out your life you would be surprised how many people know of your private life and are forced by our own oaths and laws to protect it. In america for example your social security number, has been passed around in documentation since the day you were born. Everytime you go to a health care provider, clinic or otherwise that information gets pulled via your insurance and is documented and visible several times through-out the process. Every ambulance ride that gets viewed and processed, every school registration, every time your credit is looked up. etc etc etc...Your private medical history of which all of us health care providers are bound by law and oath to protect at all times is viewed by every single person you interact with anytime you receive health care. This can include the dentist office too.

This is of course assuming you went to school, bought a car, got hurt or sick at some point in your life, or receive annual or re-occurring checkups etc. You have your private life out ther ein the open on a regular basis. Then there are data administrators who assist with converting that paperwork done by hand into digital and processing that into a database and have access to all that information at anytime they want while taking care of it. Insurance companies constantly look at your data and re-adjust your monthly fees based on your health status and how much money you have cost them with certain types of visits etc, all of that gets reviewed by a human being (last I checked anyway) at some point or another.

Point being it might seem unnerving but it is an industry standard. The responsibility of those charged in that area is huge. I spent quite a few years in two different careers filling that role and I know full well how to do my job and still be respectable with privacy, and most importantly what comes down to mandated reporting(IE seeing content related to adults approaching minors). I can guarantee you anytime I looked through the pm database which was massive, it wasn't me going down the line one by one it was doing searches for keywords to see what popped up, the way the data was stored you never saw names, only Id numbers for users so you really didn't know who was talking to who unless you spent the time digging up all the unions and connections. It was the content that was mostly focused on.

Reliah, I appreciate your candidness regarding this issue and I can certainly see why you feel the way you do. You have been a part of this Temple a long time and have seen the best and the worst of this place. Regretfully, we're currently experiencing another one of those struggles that is taking our focus away from becoming better Jedi and better people in general.

Know that I am not comfortable with the idea that anyone would be snooping around in PMs without a legitimate reason. I also believe in weighing all evidence in cases like this one as objectively as possible. It is difficult, but I believe we can remove our egos even just for a moment and try to do what is right and just for all involved. Some of us are just better at achieving this than others.

I respect you and everyone else who has felt the need to come to Zenchi's defense in this. Whether it is out of loyalty or friendship or simply wishing to see justice done, it is good to see that people here will still speak up when something is important to them. I will admit that while other Councillors have made an effort to reach out to Zenchi directly, so far I have not had a conversation with him one-on-one about this. Perhaps I am fearful of what he might have to say about me and my performance here as a Councillor, but that shouldn't stop me from hearing his side of the story directly. I will reach out once I find a way to do so diplomatically and in a way that he and others can trust is genuine. I know there is a lot of suspicion there, and I have to be willing to work through that.

Tella, and I agree that this could be it's own conversation at this point, the points that you make are all well in good, however all of that information is protected by a variety of laws as related to those specific situations. No one can go in and review that information without having specific cause, such as being a person's doctor.

Within the US (like you I can only speak to what I know), digital communications which occur in private setting (pm, email, messenger, etc between a limited number of individuals) are protected by the same privacy laws as phone calls. Those laws do not allow for the search of content in a preventative fashion. They're protected by the same warrant clauses as the rest of our private lives.

This is why there was such a major blowout with the Snowden files. Companies and organizations were reportedly ignoring those protections and giving that data to the government, which did God only knows what (or those of who actually did the job...) I could go in-depth on the laws and regulations I had to learn as part of the intelligence community as they relate to the digital communications of US persons (what what is defined as a US person) and how those laws relate to persons of a variety of other countries, which provide the same if not stricter privacy protections that we provide and countries to which the majority of our members are citizens of, but that would be neither here nor there.

The point is is that legally speaking, PMs are protected private conversations that enjoy the same legal protections as other forms of communication. And that is the communications cannot be searched without due cause. Preventative action is not considered due cause. Investigation of reported wrongs (someone actually filing a report) is. That's why it's important to emphasize to members to report wrongdoings.

Members come to TOTJO and utilize the PM system with the expectation that those protections will be respected. Being a sysadmin does not afford an individual the right to ignore those protections and admitting they are ignored, even for "our own good", and even in as massive of a data level as you state, is still a gross violation of trust.

I'm not trying to cause drama or discord. This is just my take on it, based on many years of having to work within the laws I mentioned above. Nor do I expect that TOTJO will change its current practice.

Avalon wrote: Tella, and I agree that this could be it's own conversation at this point, the points that you make are all well in good, however all of that information is protected by a variety of laws as related to those specific situations. No one can go in and review that information without having specific cause, such as being a person's doctor.

Within the US (like you I can only speak to what I know), digital communications which occur in private setting (pm, email, messenger, etc between a limited number of individuals) are protected by the same privacy laws as phone calls. Those laws do not allow for the search of content in a preventative fashion. They're protected by the same warrant clauses as the rest of our private lives.

This is why there was such a major blowout with the Snowden files. Companies and organizations were reportedly ignoring those protections and giving that data to the government, which did God only knows what (or those of who actually did the job...) I could go in-depth on the laws and regulations I had to learn as part of the intelligence community as they relate to the digital communications of US persons (what what is defined as a US person) and how those laws relate to persons of a variety of other countries, which provide the same if not stricter privacy protections that we provide and countries to which the majority of our members are citizens of, but that would be neither here nor there.

The point is is that legally speaking, PMs are protected private conversations that enjoy the same legal protections as other forms of communication. And that is the communications cannot be searched without due cause. Preventative action is not considered due cause. Investigation of reported wrongs (someone actually filing a report) is. That's why it's important to emphasize to members to report wrongdoings.

Members come to TOTJO and utilize the PM system with the expectation that those protections will be respected. Being a sysadmin does not afford an individual the right to ignore those protections and admitting they are ignored, even for "our own good", and even in as massive of a data level as you state, is still a gross violation of trust.

I'm not trying to cause drama or discord. This is just my take on it, based on many years of having to work within the laws I mentioned above. Nor do I expect that TOTJO will change its current practice.

This is true, but the server is not hosted in the US and bound to those same US laws, now where it is hosted there likely is appropriate laws, and I never said that when I did the search I didn't have a probable cause either, there are a lot of stipulations when it comes to verbiage and "scanning" and "viewing" vs "red flag searches" and so on. IT can be argued many different ways from different directions. If someone was walking through every single PM or targetting a specific person without reason absolutely you can get in trouble but red flag searches for specific words are no different then the laws that are triggered by things such as profanity filters in that respect. What needs to be on this site and isn't is a "privacy policy". I would charge that request to council to consider getting taken care of.

Tellahane wrote: What needs to be on this site and isn't is a "privacy policy". I would charge that request to council to consider getting taken care of.

Actually, there is - Privacy Policy

Senan wrote:

Tellahane wrote: What needs to be on this site and isn't is a "privacy policy". I would charge that request to council to consider getting taken care of.

Actually, there is - Privacy Policy

sorry, let me re-phrase...a PROPER privacy policy, 3 paragraphs about your profile does not much a privacy policy make.

Especially this sentance right here:
"It is important that you understand TOTJO is a website, and as such visible to the world, therefore you should not consider anything you upload, text, image, or video to be in any way private."

because of the way the rest of it is written you basically have a disclaimer that any content period posted on this website is not private, including private messages. To which I think the majority of people complaining about their privacy would be upset about.

There is also no text in the registration process that said by registering you abide and acknowledge by the terms of service and privacy policy only the statement about continuing to use the sight you agree to the terms of use.

Also the privacy policy is not linked to anywhere on the site that I can easily find, its not in the FAQ under temple policies its not on the home page, the registration page, its not in the footer of the website which is the most common practice...and there isn't anything that is a I agree to kind of thing so yeah...I'm pretty sure the way that privacy policy is currently setup, its not an actual "policy"

just things to think about

Except that you, being a US citizen located in the US, are expected to abide by US laws when carrying out actions online. And again, as I said, many of the same laws that apply to private communications online within the US are the same or even stricter in the countries any of our members are located in. This was something that we were required to learn when I was in the Navy. Without knowing where the server is currently located, I can't say specifically. If it's in the EU, privacy laws are stronger. If it's in Canada, privacy laws are about the same. But I promise you that the server location isn't taken into account when it comes to US law; only the act and the location of the one carrying out the act.

But if any of us located in the US were to sue you as a sysadmin for violating our privacy and looking through our communications without due cause or permission, you would be held accountable to US laws. Just as an example.

When it comes to this sort of thing, the respectable international community tends to follow the laws of the country(ies) the accused and the accuser are located in, not the location of the server, because the act wasn't committed (necessarily) within the country try of the server. Of course, that country can sue in turn based on their own laws, but that's another point all together.


You say you didn't do these things without due cause, but the implications were certainly there And again, due cause in this case is only in the course of investigation of a report, not because you were checking preventatively, and you most definitely implied that.

Also, when I see that line on the privacy statement, no part of that screams to me that private messages. It says things I post on the wall, in public chat, in a forum post. But not private messages.... Then again, that could easily be because I had all these laws drilled into me for a number of years.

Once again though another conversation for another time. This has nothing to do with the accusations and actions being taken against Zenchi.

It literally sais "therefore you should not consider anything you upload, text, image, or video to be in any way private." with no stipulation to any specific area other then the entire website which would include all methods to which you can upload/text/image/video which includes private messaging, even you know that can be argued that way and the only thing to debate on is the intent of the language, which can easily be interpreted too many ways for it to be "protective".

But yes if you want to continue this lets go to PM