Stuff n Things, Or how to get excommunicated and not even know why, lol!

I stopped coming here because of bullshit like this. I finally come back and this is the first thing I see!

Remember when it used to be (mostly) new members who got banned? Rather than established, committed, long term members who actually hold rank?

I think it says something about a place when half the people who have been around for the long haul are either walking away or being booted out.

I'm done.

Brick wrote: I stopped coming here because of bullshit like this. I finally come back and this is the first thing I see!

Remember when it used to be (mostly) new members who got banned? Rather than established, committed, long term members who actually hold rank?

I think it says something about a place when half the people who have been around for the long haul are either walking away or being booted out.

I'm done.

Agreed. I came back from a multi-year hiatus hoping things had changed; but I see they haven't. It's just more of the same; petulant, childish behavior.

I believe it calls for another hiatus, if not more.

Yes please, judge books by their covers and make judgments and accusations then claim people are not jedi or follow the code then stomp off as an attempt to be a martyr!

We had such peace in this place for so long. Months of training, happiness, and growth for all involved. I loved it. I spent my time reading journals, reaching out to those that needed help, and focusing on my career, both professionally and as a future Jedi Knight.

And then someone decides to throw some wrenches in the engine. Why are people trying to fix something that wasn't broken? Were you bored? Wanted something to watch while munching popcorn? I look at the wall now and see at least one new person turned away by this sudden onset of drama that did not exist a mere 48 hours ago.

In the end, Zen hasn't been active outside Ava and my own journals, and was content to settle for the role of teacher over anything else. Yes, we brought back another member known for causing trouble, but so far they've seem to have changed in their exile (for now, at least. Its easy to play along short term, so not jumping to conclusions either way).

But, as it stands, I've STILL yet to be given evidence that Zen encouraged myself or Ava to bully people. STILL. Which means at least ONE of that list is false, which calls the rest into question. If you have all the problems to easily found, why have we not been provided with any evidence of such?

I dunno. This whole situation reeks of trying to cause problems where there were none for ages. The temple was quiet, and now people are pointing fingers and demanding justices and injustices either way while the those that truly need our help, those coming in, are fleeing before such drama.

You are not to be given evidence arisaig. Your case will be discussed separately from zenchi's. We are first giving zenchi the opportunity to complete your training to his satisfaction, but it is doubtful he will see you knighted based on degree work and his recommendation alone. This matter will be handled when the time comes, if you will it.

Although zenchi made this conversation public, the goal is to make arrangements for orderly withdrawal, as he may no longer speak as a knight or member of the order, yet has some unfinished business to attend to.

While comments by ava and ari are understandably charged and biased, the random garbage others have been spewing out has no place here, and is rather ill-informed. We mind ours, soleirolia soleirolii.

My two cents..for what’s its worth.

I have a different perspective here than most. Being a former soldier, I’m very used to following my leaders without question. In the army, if your given an order you follow it. End of discussion. The end result of following that order is what gives you FAITH in your leaders ability to lead. You don’t ask for proof that there’s a good reason to do what you’ve been directed to do. And why is most certainly a question that you never ask. And all of that is for VERY good reason. Leaders are leaders because someone put them in that position. Things are classified by the military for good reasons too. Not everyone needs to know why we’re gonna take over some hill. But as a soldier you learn to trust that there are good reasons even if you don’t know what they are.

How that’s applicable here...if your going to be a member here and plan to try to progress the ONLY way that’s going to happen is that you have to trust your leaders here. Weather you agree with the councils decision or not, it is what it is. And no amount of debating on this or any other thread will make the council suddenly change its mind. To the best of my knowledge the council is not elected by us. They are appointed by other members of the council. I just don’t understand why everyone seems to not grasp that. The council are not “servants of the people”( granted certain positions may serve a specific purpose).They are in therory atelast our leaders. What they (as a whole) say, goes. Being an apprentice here, means that I have chosen to trust not only my TM, but the council as well. And if I ever find myself not trusting my leaders here, then here is not where I should be.

I have a lot of respect for zenchi, and both of his apprentices! They have been nothing but helpful to me. And while I may disagree personally with the councils decision here, I also understand that for everything I know about this situation, there is probably 100 that I don’t. But I must keep FAITH that the council (as a whole) has reasons for doing what they did, even if I don’t know what they are. FAITH doesn’t require proof. I have no doubts that there are things happening behind the scenes... where IMO they should be.

Zenchi is it my deepest hope that you appeal all of this with the council, and they reinstate you. If they choose not to then IMO the temple will have lost a good knight , teacher and friend.

I have thought long and hard about how to respond here. I can say that this was a vote that I was not happy with. This was an outcome that I and others attempted to avoid. I truly do not enjoy seeing such turmoil in the Temple and such events feel like a failure on my part. For any failure or let down in leadership on my part I do apologize.

Zero Storm wrote: My two cents..for what’s its worth.

I have a different perspective here than most. Being a former soldier, I’m very used to following my leaders without question. In the army, if your given an order you follow it. End of discussion. The end result of following that order is what gives you FAITH in your leaders ability to lead. You don’t ask for proof that there’s a good reason to do what you’ve been directed to do. And why is most certainly a question that you never ask. And all of that is for VERY good reason. Leaders are leaders because someone put them in that position. Things are classified by the military for good reasons too. Not everyone needs to know why we’re gonna take over some hill. But as a soldier you learn to trust that there are good reasons even if you don’t know what they are.

How that’s applicable here...if your going to be a member here and plan to try to progress the ONLY way that’s going to happen is that you have to trust your leaders here. Weather you agree with the councils decision or not, it is what it is. And no amount of debating on this or any other thread will make the council suddenly change its mind. To the best of my knowledge the council is not elected by us. They are appointed by other members of the council. I just don’t understand why everyone seems to not grasp that. The council are not “servants of the people”( granted certain positions may serve a specific purpose).They are in therory atelast our leaders. What they (as a whole) say, goes. Being an apprentice here, means that I have chosen to trust not only my TM, but the council as well. And if I ever find myself not trusting my leaders here, then here is not where I should be.

I have a lot of respect for zenchi, and both of his apprentices! They have been nothing but helpful to me. And while I may disagree personally with the councils decision here, I also understand that for everything I know about this situation, there is probably 100 that I don’t. But I must keep FAITH that the council (as a whole) has reasons for doing what they did, even if I don’t know what they are. FAITH doesn’t require proof. I have no doubts that there are things happening behind the scenes... where IMO they should be.

Zenchi is it my deepest hope that you appeal all of this with the council, and they reinstate you. If they choose not to then IMO the temple will have lost a good knight , teacher and friend.

I'm not going to pick at this and point out all the things you've missed going on here in the last few months, would be pretty pointless...

Some things are worth fighting for. There's a time to stand down, refrain from acting. And then, there's a time to take a stand, & fight for what you believe in. Hopefully one day you'll understand...

I'm all out of Faith......

I hope people read through this very carefully to see that the people who run this site have admitted to reading PM's (but don't worry it's for your own good ), that a non-Jedi can be part of the council, that some information is best kept from you (again - for your own good), and that they can pick and choose who to make examples of regardless of how much time has passed.

To Ren: we've spoken several times about why you wouldn't take the oath, why you haven't done the IP, how you haven't had a totjo apprenticeship/knighting, etc. When I was approaching people for ideas on who I'd like as a training master you told me you couldn't for all those reasons. Yeah, this is a he said, she said moment and I have no proof of any of this.
Not long ago your status bar read "member" for all of these reasons.
As far as my own oath goes - that was never revoked. I simply asked that my status bar was changed from Knight to guest. As I said in my previous post, Knighthood is something that can't be given or taken away from you and I have never been a Knight, not in my mind or in my heart. It's something I struggled with frequently because it's something I take very seriously and believe holds a lot of value and meaning.
This isn't really about you or me on a personal level, though - only an administrative one. If things have changed since then I would have expected it to be obvious as oaths, ip journals, and apprenticeships are normally fairly public things.

Tellhane: you're right. No one is banned. Yet.
Some of the things you touched on you're not entirely informed on and I hold none of that against you in the least. Like I said, things have been hidden away and that's not your fault. However, the last part - about how not all of the council agreed (on Zenchi's Knighting) and how there are different people in now - that is also irrelevant and I'm sure you understand why and how. It would be similar to a jury finding someone not guilty of something and then another jury and new judge coming along trying to convict them for the very thing they were pardoned of just because they weren't the ones involved in the pardoning. That's not how things work. And if it is, that's another red flag.
I like that you were able to add more to the things I said that you agreed with. I appreciate you enhancing them by adding your own views to them. The part, "....I've expressed many times the failure that is the knighting and ranking system here so I don't feel I need to re-iterate." - that's what I mean when I say "the people who stay and fight". People like you. So thank you and good luck.

This temple will always hold a special place in my heart and I will always hope the best for it and the Jedi within...
I hope things get better soon.

This is not meant to be argumentative, but simply to clarify a few things in your statement.

Reliah wrote: I hope people read through this very carefully to see that the people who run this site have admitted to reading PM's (but don't worry it's for your own good ), that a non-Jedi can be part of the council, that some information is best kept from you (again - for your own good), and that they can pick and choose who to make examples of regardless of how much time has passed.

To be clear, a very select few have access to PM's, not the entire Council, and those that do only access them if there is a specific complaint made that requires investigation. I am not one of those people, by the way. These instances most often involve an accusation of inappropriate and possibly illegal behavior that we are obligated to look into.

Reliah wrote: Tellhane: you're right. No one is banned. Yet.
Some of the things you touched on you're not entirely informed on and I hold none of that against you in the least. Like I said, things have been hidden away and that's not your fault. However, the last part - about how not all of the council agreed (on Zenchi's Knighting) and how there are different people in now - that is also irrelevant and I'm sure you understand why and how. It would be similar to a jury finding someone not guilty of something and then another jury and new judge coming along trying to convict them for the very thing they were pardoned of just because they weren't the ones involved in the pardoning. That's not how things work. And if it is, that's another red flag.

This isn't an entirely fair comparison. You are correct that past behavior is now being judged by a group of Councillors that were not Councillors at the time of Zenchi's Knighting or some of the past conflicts, but the current decision is being weighed by each of us on the pattern of repeating behavior including recent events. As a personal example, I was not a Councillor or even a member when Zenchi started here and then left the Temple for a while. I don't pretend to know the details of what went down, but I was a Knight Adviser and got caught up in the mix with him later over the avatar issue. That event could inform my vote because I was there, but not the previous one. It is different for each Councillor, and each of us has to weigh the evidence we see and decide what is based on evidence and what we can be confident in believing. We're also human, and our own biases and opinions do come into play. That is what has made this whole process very difficult for all of us on Council as a whole. It came down to a vote with the majority opinion becoming the judgment, and per our charter and bylaws, we are bound by that decision whether we individually agree with it or not.

Reliah wrote: This temple will always hold a special place in my heart and I will always hope the best for it and the Jedi within...
I hope things get better soon.

I know it doesn't always seem like it, but this place is special to Councillors too, and we work very hard to make it better everyday. We are volunteers and we will make mistakes, but everything we do is because we also hope for the best for this place and its members.