Stuff n Things, Or how to get excommunicated and not even know why, lol!

Maybe a lot less of this nonsense would happen if upon requests for evidence of misbehaviour, some would be provided, if not to the public, then to an elected independent party. With how things currently work, I don't see it becoming acceptable any time soon, that users respected and valued for the interesting and controversial discussions - and, on some occasions, heated debates, too - are just being un-peopled for unspecific or long lapsed reasons, by parties unnamed who are judges, jurors, and executioners, that needn't and want not provide any records of anything they do to neither the public, nor elected representatives of the public, nor can be themselves elected into or out of office. What you could do, of course, is just rid this place of people with questions or concerns or objections, along with any trace of their ever being around. But as it stands, this cannot keep happening over, and over, and over again, no matter what week of the year you log on to check out what's new.

Senan, I don't read things from you as argumentative and appreciate you taking the time to share your insights.

The PM thing came up because of things that happened in the past that were real and extremely inappropriate as well as Tellhanes comment, which was... unnerving? It's something that has happened more than once and has caused huge issues... to a whole lot of people. I know not all councilors have access to that area and am also positive that even if some of them did, they would use it the way you described. My intent with this particular example is going to be mostly lost, I think. What you said is exactly why I used it... it should've been easy to deal with and pinpoint. It was a much bigger deal than this.
So yes, not all people who have access to that information will do what has been done.
And not all councilors have access to that information at all.

I also understand that in order for a complete picture to be made it needs to be looked at as a whole. I just hope the information being given is accurate, fair, and as unbiased as possible. Yes, we are all human and are obviously going to have our own ideas an opinions, but I hope that things are looked at as objectively as possible and from as many different angles as possible. I also hope that whatever happened before a Knighting wouldn't be used against a person in and of itself, if that makes sense.

I've been a counselor - very briefly - but long enough... and I don't envy your position. I know most of you are there because you have earned it, have proven yourselves and your dedication to the temple and the Jedi here, and take your jobs very seriously and carefully. Most of you continue your studies, take your positions seriously, and strive to become better Jedi constantly. It's exhausting and I acknowledge those efforts and thank you, sincerely, for it. I know the amount of time and effort some of you put in would be equal to a part-time job, at least, and that you get nothing in return except knowing that you are doing everything you can to make this place everything it could be. Well that.. and a bunch of angry people who (think they) know how to do your job better than you do.


Edit: I came here to support a long time fellow Jedi - a person I consider a friend. I have seen his growth and how much he has changed over the years, the struggles he's had.. the leaps and bounds he has made, and the current intentions of his being here. He is also a human with opinions and ideas and sometimes those might not be what anyone else would do and he might get things wrong from time to time - but he always evolves, changes.. and he has worked his butt off to get to where he is. This means something to him... this is something that is deeply part of who he is (from my perspective).. and I have been here through all the pitfalls, lessons, his return... his sincerity..
Just have a conversation with him. One on one. Before you decide on anything. That's all I'm asking.

Reliah wrote: The PM thing came up because of things that happened in the past that were real and extremely inappropriate as well as Tellhanes comment, which was... unnerving?

At this point this could probably be moved to a separate discussion but to make a point, if you pay attention(at least here in the US I can't speak for other countries) to what private information of yours changes hands through -out your life you would be surprised how many people know of your private life and are forced by our own oaths and laws to protect it. In america for example your social security number, has been passed around in documentation since the day you were born. Everytime you go to a health care provider, clinic or otherwise that information gets pulled via your insurance and is documented and visible several times through-out the process. Every ambulance ride that gets viewed and processed, every school registration, every time your credit is looked up. etc etc etc...Your private medical history of which all of us health care providers are bound by law and oath to protect at all times is viewed by every single person you interact with anytime you receive health care. This can include the dentist office too.

This is of course assuming you went to school, bought a car, got hurt or sick at some point in your life, or receive annual or re-occurring checkups etc. You have your private life out ther ein the open on a regular basis. Then there are data administrators who assist with converting that paperwork done by hand into digital and processing that into a database and have access to all that information at anytime they want while taking care of it. Insurance companies constantly look at your data and re-adjust your monthly fees based on your health status and how much money you have cost them with certain types of visits etc, all of that gets reviewed by a human being (last I checked anyway) at some point or another.

Point being it might seem unnerving but it is an industry standard. The responsibility of those charged in that area is huge. I spent quite a few years in two different careers filling that role and I know full well how to do my job and still be respectable with privacy, and most importantly what comes down to mandated reporting(IE seeing content related to adults approaching minors). I can guarantee you anytime I looked through the pm database which was massive, it wasn't me going down the line one by one it was doing searches for keywords to see what popped up, the way the data was stored you never saw names, only Id numbers for users so you really didn't know who was talking to who unless you spent the time digging up all the unions and connections. It was the content that was mostly focused on.

Reliah, I appreciate your candidness regarding this issue and I can certainly see why you feel the way you do. You have been a part of this Temple a long time and have seen the best and the worst of this place. Regretfully, we're currently experiencing another one of those struggles that is taking our focus away from becoming better Jedi and better people in general.

Know that I am not comfortable with the idea that anyone would be snooping around in PMs without a legitimate reason. I also believe in weighing all evidence in cases like this one as objectively as possible. It is difficult, but I believe we can remove our egos even just for a moment and try to do what is right and just for all involved. Some of us are just better at achieving this than others.

I respect you and everyone else who has felt the need to come to Zenchi's defense in this. Whether it is out of loyalty or friendship or simply wishing to see justice done, it is good to see that people here will still speak up when something is important to them. I will admit that while other Councillors have made an effort to reach out to Zenchi directly, so far I have not had a conversation with him one-on-one about this. Perhaps I am fearful of what he might have to say about me and my performance here as a Councillor, but that shouldn't stop me from hearing his side of the story directly. I will reach out once I find a way to do so diplomatically and in a way that he and others can trust is genuine. I know there is a lot of suspicion there, and I have to be willing to work through that.

Tella, and I agree that this could be it's own conversation at this point, the points that you make are all well in good, however all of that information is protected by a variety of laws as related to those specific situations. No one can go in and review that information without having specific cause, such as being a person's doctor.

Within the US (like you I can only speak to what I know), digital communications which occur in private setting (pm, email, messenger, etc between a limited number of individuals) are protected by the same privacy laws as phone calls. Those laws do not allow for the search of content in a preventative fashion. They're protected by the same warrant clauses as the rest of our private lives.

This is why there was such a major blowout with the Snowden files. Companies and organizations were reportedly ignoring those protections and giving that data to the government, which did God only knows what (or those of who actually did the job...) I could go in-depth on the laws and regulations I had to learn as part of the intelligence community as they relate to the digital communications of US persons (what what is defined as a US person) and how those laws relate to persons of a variety of other countries, which provide the same if not stricter privacy protections that we provide and countries to which the majority of our members are citizens of, but that would be neither here nor there.

The point is is that legally speaking, PMs are protected private conversations that enjoy the same legal protections as other forms of communication. And that is the communications cannot be searched without due cause. Preventative action is not considered due cause. Investigation of reported wrongs (someone actually filing a report) is. That's why it's important to emphasize to members to report wrongdoings.

Members come to TOTJO and utilize the PM system with the expectation that those protections will be respected. Being a sysadmin does not afford an individual the right to ignore those protections and admitting they are ignored, even for "our own good", and even in as massive of a data level as you state, is still a gross violation of trust.

I'm not trying to cause drama or discord. This is just my take on it, based on many years of having to work within the laws I mentioned above. Nor do I expect that TOTJO will change its current practice.

Avalon wrote: Tella, and I agree that this could be it's own conversation at this point, the points that you make are all well in good, however all of that information is protected by a variety of laws as related to those specific situations. No one can go in and review that information without having specific cause, such as being a person's doctor.

Within the US (like you I can only speak to what I know), digital communications which occur in private setting (pm, email, messenger, etc between a limited number of individuals) are protected by the same privacy laws as phone calls. Those laws do not allow for the search of content in a preventative fashion. They're protected by the same warrant clauses as the rest of our private lives.

This is why there was such a major blowout with the Snowden files. Companies and organizations were reportedly ignoring those protections and giving that data to the government, which did God only knows what (or those of who actually did the job...) I could go in-depth on the laws and regulations I had to learn as part of the intelligence community as they relate to the digital communications of US persons (what what is defined as a US person) and how those laws relate to persons of a variety of other countries, which provide the same if not stricter privacy protections that we provide and countries to which the majority of our members are citizens of, but that would be neither here nor there.

The point is is that legally speaking, PMs are protected private conversations that enjoy the same legal protections as other forms of communication. And that is the communications cannot be searched without due cause. Preventative action is not considered due cause. Investigation of reported wrongs (someone actually filing a report) is. That's why it's important to emphasize to members to report wrongdoings.

Members come to TOTJO and utilize the PM system with the expectation that those protections will be respected. Being a sysadmin does not afford an individual the right to ignore those protections and admitting they are ignored, even for "our own good", and even in as massive of a data level as you state, is still a gross violation of trust.

I'm not trying to cause drama or discord. This is just my take on it, based on many years of having to work within the laws I mentioned above. Nor do I expect that TOTJO will change its current practice.

This is true, but the server is not hosted in the US and bound to those same US laws, now where it is hosted there likely is appropriate laws, and I never said that when I did the search I didn't have a probable cause either, there are a lot of stipulations when it comes to verbiage and "scanning" and "viewing" vs "red flag searches" and so on. IT can be argued many different ways from different directions. If someone was walking through every single PM or targetting a specific person without reason absolutely you can get in trouble but red flag searches for specific words are no different then the laws that are triggered by things such as profanity filters in that respect. What needs to be on this site and isn't is a "privacy policy". I would charge that request to council to consider getting taken care of.

Tellahane wrote: What needs to be on this site and isn't is a "privacy policy". I would charge that request to council to consider getting taken care of.

Actually, there is - Privacy Policy

Senan wrote:

Tellahane wrote: What needs to be on this site and isn't is a "privacy policy". I would charge that request to council to consider getting taken care of.

Actually, there is - Privacy Policy

sorry, let me re-phrase...a PROPER privacy policy, 3 paragraphs about your profile does not much a privacy policy make.

Especially this sentance right here:
"It is important that you understand TOTJO is a website, and as such visible to the world, therefore you should not consider anything you upload, text, image, or video to be in any way private."

because of the way the rest of it is written you basically have a disclaimer that any content period posted on this website is not private, including private messages. To which I think the majority of people complaining about their privacy would be upset about.

There is also no text in the registration process that said by registering you abide and acknowledge by the terms of service and privacy policy only the statement about continuing to use the sight you agree to the terms of use.

Also the privacy policy is not linked to anywhere on the site that I can easily find, its not in the FAQ under temple policies its not on the home page, the registration page, its not in the footer of the website which is the most common practice...and there isn't anything that is a I agree to kind of thing so yeah...I'm pretty sure the way that privacy policy is currently setup, its not an actual "policy"

just things to think about

Except that you, being a US citizen located in the US, are expected to abide by US laws when carrying out actions online. And again, as I said, many of the same laws that apply to private communications online within the US are the same or even stricter in the countries any of our members are located in. This was something that we were required to learn when I was in the Navy. Without knowing where the server is currently located, I can't say specifically. If it's in the EU, privacy laws are stronger. If it's in Canada, privacy laws are about the same. But I promise you that the server location isn't taken into account when it comes to US law; only the act and the location of the one carrying out the act.

But if any of us located in the US were to sue you as a sysadmin for violating our privacy and looking through our communications without due cause or permission, you would be held accountable to US laws. Just as an example.

When it comes to this sort of thing, the respectable international community tends to follow the laws of the country(ies) the accused and the accuser are located in, not the location of the server, because the act wasn't committed (necessarily) within the country try of the server. Of course, that country can sue in turn based on their own laws, but that's another point all together.


You say you didn't do these things without due cause, but the implications were certainly there And again, due cause in this case is only in the course of investigation of a report, not because you were checking preventatively, and you most definitely implied that.

Also, when I see that line on the privacy statement, no part of that screams to me that private messages. It says things I post on the wall, in public chat, in a forum post. But not private messages.... Then again, that could easily be because I had all these laws drilled into me for a number of years.

Once again though another conversation for another time. This has nothing to do with the accusations and actions being taken against Zenchi.

It literally sais "therefore you should not consider anything you upload, text, image, or video to be in any way private." with no stipulation to any specific area other then the entire website which would include all methods to which you can upload/text/image/video which includes private messaging, even you know that can be argued that way and the only thing to debate on is the intent of the language, which can easily be interpreted too many ways for it to be "protective".

But yes if you want to continue this lets go to PM

It also says "visible to the world". Private messages are not visible to the world.

They are visible to the intended recipient, the sender, and the admins. Who have the responsibility of protecting the rights of the user.

I have nothing more to say on the matter. I believe my stance is perfectly clear.

The action of reading PMs without an investigative cause or explicit permission is wrong. But then, I think you know that or you wouldn't be defending it so vehemently no that you're being called out on it ... *shrugs*

Like I said, I'm not going to cause trouble of this. I don't expect it to change. At least now it's been explicitly stated that private communications are read through... Now people know. What they do with it is their own business.

Let's get back to the real issue at hand in this thread...

Senan wrote: I will admit that while other Councillors have made an effort to reach out to Zenchi directly, so far I have not had a conversation with him one-on-one about this. Perhaps I am fearful of what he might have to say about me and my performance here as a Councillor, but that shouldn't stop me from hearing his side of the story directly. I will reach out once I find a way to do so diplomatically and in a way that he and others can trust is genuine. I know there is a lot of suspicion there, and I have to be willing to work through that.

Please, in all due sincerity and politeness, don't...

The time to come chew with me like an adult would have been long before this mess began, or even immediately after the decision was made in the first place...

Instead the whole lot of you let Ren be the one to break the news to me...

I'm really not up to read or have this thread derailed further with all the reasons as to why you haven't, so let's not and say we did, pretty please.....

Zenchi wrote:

Senan wrote: I will admit that while other Councillors have made an effort to reach out to Zenchi directly, so far I have not had a conversation with him one-on-one about this. Perhaps I am fearful of what he might have to say about me and my performance here as a Councillor, but that shouldn't stop me from hearing his side of the story directly. I will reach out once I find a way to do so diplomatically and in a way that he and others can trust is genuine. I know there is a lot of suspicion there, and I have to be willing to work through that.

Please, in all due sincerity and politeness, don't...

The time to come chew with me like an adult would have been long before this mess began, or even immediately after the decision was made in the first place...

Instead the whole lot of you let Ren be the one to break the news to me...

I'm really not up to read or have this thread derailed further with all the reasons as to why you haven't, so let's not and say we did, pretty please.....

Fair enough... I did not instigate any of this and aside from any personal failings that prevented me from addressing it with you directly, I chose to respect MadHatter's request to allow him to be the point of communication. I didn't have any control over how others chose to proceed. If you ever want my side of the story, just ask and I will be honest with you. Otherwise, I'll leave it alone.

@Tellahane

Forget which country you or the server is in, and look at the ethical point of view.

You say it's (paraphrased) "ends justify the means"- by that measure, what makes you any better than Hitler?

Tellahane and I spoke in another area separately from here. But for anyone that is curious where I was going with this:

If a legitimate concern is brought to the council that may suggest that there is some shady stuff going on, then investigating the PMs available should not be looked at as being a problem. However, if you're simply going through PMs without probable cause- then it's a clear violation of ethical discourse occurring.

Whether the organization is or isn't in one area of the world or another, it is a private organization - whereas laws govern what can and cannot be done by the government. If the PMs were provided as part of an official investigation (read one by police of the government) without a warrant then we would be in some very murky water. But given that it is only for an organization that is volunteer based and you do not pay actual money dues to outside of donation- this group can honestly do whatever they want and not be criminally charged. At the end of the day, the question isn't one of legality, but ethical discourse.

As noted in another thread, I also want to share that in any case that might involve criminal activity, we ALWAYS encourage the accuser to contact local law enforcement and allow them to handle the investigation. TOTJO will cooperate with the investigation fully and provide whatever information law enforcement might request from us assuming they provide the appropriate justification or a warrant. We would rather let the professionals conduct the investigation so that we don't screw anything up and jeopardize any eventual legal proceedings that could come from it.

Now... let's get back on the rails of this thread. I'm sure Zenchi would appreciate if we could keep the conversation here involving his original post. If anyone wishes to continue discussing our servers, PMs, investigations, or other security issues, please start a new thread or PM me directly and I will answer to the best of my knowledge. Thank you!

Some of this might have been already been posted but for those concerned and for Zenchi:

Zenchi is not banned. He'll continue to have access as a Guest.

The vote was 6 YES - 4 NO (There are 10 voting Councillors at this time.) Zenchi has the right to know the vote. As this has been made public I'm publishing the vote. I have the right to say how I voted and I was not for this. (Not voting has the same effect as voting NO.) If other Councillors want to say how they voted it's their right.

As this was decided by a simple majority, a simple majority can revoke the excommunication at any time.

[hr]

This decision was legal but that does not mean it's right.

In my opinion, this shows the need for a By-Law specifically addressing the procedure of excommunication.

Anyone is welcome to make suggestions. I'm in early draft stages of what I'm working on to propose as a By-Law. A By-Law requires a 2/3 vote to pass.

I have in mind a two phase procedure sort of like Texas uses in criminal trials. One phase is a person is accused of something or some things. They must be informed about all the allegations and able to confront accusers and any evidence. If they are found to be guilty of something or some things, then the next phase is deciding the appropriate action. This could be anything from a warning, to a reprimand, a suspension for a period of time, or excommunication. Finding someone guilty could possibly require a 2/3 majority or greater, as could the decision on the action.

Tellahane wrote:

Reliah wrote: So you’re banning people now for things unbecoming of a Jedi? Banning... not just withholding knighthood or anything like that?

No one is banned, please use appropriate verbiage

Okay, so we all know that I think Words Mean Things™, but this is just Newspeak at this point.

steamboat28 wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Reliah wrote: So you’re banning people now for things unbecoming of a Jedi? Banning... not just withholding knighthood or anything like that?

No one is banned, please use appropriate verbiage

Okay, so we all know that I think Words Mean Things™, but this is just Newspeak at this point.

When an account is blocked the built in function of Joomla labels in as Banned even though it's often a temporary suspension. A person can be 'banned' but still be a member and maintain their rank. An excommunication is the removal of status as a member along with ranks and clerical status but it does not block a persons account. They are still able to login and participate as a guest.

"Banned" can mean more than just the forums, John. You and I both know that an excommunication isn't just a stripping of membership. It's a banning of concelebration. Let's call this what it is.