Jedi Sentinel Findings

because I trust in nature and the universal equilibrium, maybe nature do that for us, and move the earth from the orbit, making, poles change, making north fly away, and make with that, an electromagnetic field uncontrolled, and thats the real chaos for the world...

handful of people are not gonna change anything, but is better to try
mother nature is angry, and we are almost in time, to see how she correct everything....

Im no economist but here is what really ammuses me - except it aint funny if you really think about it

Every country on this planet owes money to another - yes even america owes money.

So lets say all the debts are worked out - i bet every country would wind up equal if everyone settled the debt all at the same time.

The unfortunate thing is small countries cant pay out fast enough to negate the interest - this actually applies to most 'rich' nations too these days but except for all the physical things like gold - what exactly is money?

At the end of the day - its digits on a global computer system - wouldnt it be fun iof all that suddenly crashed.

Actually no - because it would no doubt spark another global war and all over something that doent really exist

Would we go to war over the easter bunny? No we wouldnt - but the idea of fighting over invisible unusable 'things' is just as absurd.

You may heard of other places that do this - but there is a small town near me (called totnes) that has or had it own 'currency' which in effect was a bartering system. You could either trade skills for goods (or visa versa) ie a plumber fixes the farmers boiler in exchange for a pile of crops, or you could agree to something else - or they used the acoprn currency which was like a pay later idea between individuals.

This is really just going back to the days when small communities dealt with each other without cash and it actually worked

I would also like to point out something very serious - going back to the debt between nations, im sure you all know about the horrific and devastating floods in Pakistan - they will need to 'borrow' billions to recover - thing is, I doubt they will ever be able to pay it back.

It took Britain over 60 years to repay america for loans from WW2 ans the UK is a relatively wealthy nation.

I dont think there is a single solution to the problem, unless everyone agrees to just wipe everyone elses debts - and I doubt that will happen anytime this millenia

Master Haruki, I find you idea to be noble and well meaning, but unfortunatley not very well thought through. The absolute worse thing that you can ever do to a country or anybody is to remove all of their mistakes and crimes. I shall use an example:

Lets say I make a mistake, now because i've made a mistake I get punished. But lets say i'm stupid, and I keep making mistakes, well now my problems are getting worse and worse. Lets now say that someone thinks that it would be really kind and nice if they forgive me of all my mistakes. Well that's great! Now all my mistakes have been forgiven, i'm really happy! But that does not mean i've learnt anything. Therefore I keep making mistakes, and soon enough i'm back to where I was before. And so the cycle continues.

That is why you should never remove a countries debt. Or why you should just forgive someone for what they've done. If you remove the threat of them being punished, in what ever form, then all that will happen is that they will continue as they were before. Why should they bother changing their ways if you'll keep on forgiving them?

I should mention that yes there are circumstances where forgiving someone or removing debt is a good thing, but in the vast majority of cases it is ill-thought out. The law of unintended consequencies comes into play with forgiveness unfortunately.

You also mentioned the barter system. That is a great system that works incredibly well, when there are less than 100 people or so. I'm a potter and I make nice cups. But I want a pencil. Who do I give my pots to to get a pencil? What about if I wanted a car, or (as in the case of recent ventures) I wanted equipment for a space shuttle? The barter system does not work in any form in large scale cases.

Money is everything. Lets say I have £20. That £20 is 40 apples, or its 100 pencils, or its 10 cups, or its a nice new wallet, or its a set of books. Money simplifies everything. I don't have to worry about who I give my clay pots to, because I can just give them this intermediary stuff that is everything at once, this money. Money represents everything at once. All it is is just a way in which we translate every good's worth into the worth of every other good. Its a tool of comparison and a backdrop where we can compare the worth of every good in a simple and very effective way.

There is more I wish to say on this topic, but I will pause and reflect and allow others to comment before I continue on and add more content.

If anything above sounds offensive then it is unintentional. I do not think I have said anything in such a tone as to make me think you're stupid, as that is not my intent or what i believe, i'm merely voicing my views on topics that you and others brought up.

Akkarin your welcome to speak your mind without fear. So long as you go into a conversation without hate or ignorance than you've done nothing wrong. Dont apologize for something you haven't done yet. The reason why is because I'm going to reply to you in the same way. So long as you dont get offended by what I have to say than there should be no reason why I should get offended by being allowed to be treated the same as you.

Wow i hope you understand what I mean :dry:


Ok Debt should be forgotten if not reset. I'm a firm believer in the quote \"if what your doing isn't working try something different\". So fare they way the world handel's currency ISN'T working. As for forgiving a stupid person well...there is really nothing to forgive. If he's stupid than thats the end of story. Its the people that judge a stupid person that need to be forgiven for. You cant punish some one or something for being them selves. As Jedi we have to understand circumstances like this.

As Master Daniel has said, although we all do it, unless the insult is blatent, there is no need for apologies....

It is like paying interest on a money, you haven't borrowed yet.... (I said this to someone else just the other day... And stole it from somewhere else.. lol)

Usually most of us here have thick enough skin not to get too upset about some words....

I find everything about this all, very interesting.... As I have said my whole life, I cannot run my household in the red ink, how does the government? Why are thay allowed? Cause they set the rules..... I keep writing checks, and promising money, eventually, it catches up with me...

This is what is happening.... Citizens spent what they didn't have, then ask for help, the government, helping these people out, gave away money it doesnt have.... Now California, and other states are having a bit of trouble...

What next?

You know what is interesting, and I hope some high-ranking government official sees this....

As each county owes each other, and if we do not owe them directly, we could, like loan sharks, start buyin the debt from each other using our own money that is debited to us....


A owes 1
B owes 2
C owes 3

A owes B who owes C who owes A

A says, \"C owes me 3, but B owes him 2, and A owes B, 1\"

If we cancel out the 1 owed by A, then B owes C-1, and C owes 2

Eliminating A's debt, and reducing B & C's debt as well....

(I think this hurt my brain....)

ok, lol, other than the logistics... What am I missing?

Whats missing is for at least one of the group to WANT to help the other sort things out and ultimately themselves.

Good old fashioned greed is working its magic still - i dunno, maybe its another part of human nature.

Yes - money (cash) does make a level playing field for trade - that wasnt my point - my point is/was as the above made - everyone seems to owe everyone else.

Wouldnt itbe fun if governments could be 'repossessed' for getting into too much debt.

Greece is quite a good example - and now the irish republic have joined the unenviable club of 'cap in hand' to the EU for bail outs.

And the top bankers still get the obscene bonuses....

Thank you both for being understanding. I tend to worry a lot, and sometimes my tone can sound arrogant. So I just wanted to make sure that people weren't taking offence at something I wrote that was written in a way they found insulting, because that was not my intent.

But continuing with the discussion at hand, I shall first clarify what I meant by 'stupid people'. That was not an insult against people with low IQs, rather it was an odd way of saying 'people who will not learn from their mistakes, or do not care'. I am fully aware there are circumstances whereby forgiveness is something that should be granted but I ask you, what is forgiveness without a lesson?

Lets suppose this: Someone is a certain way, lets say they have a rather unconventional and unpopular belief that means they wish to cause harm to people. Now because of this certain way that they behave they commit some sort of offence or crime. That offence or crime is a symptom of the way they think. After all aren't all actions that we perform based on how we think, they are all 'symptoms' of our thoughts. Lets say we punish this person for they way they have acted. Suppose now that after being punished they do the same act again. So they are punished again. Now lets say that someone, with purely good intentions and wishes, says that we should give everyone a clean start. So that persons criminal record is removed; they have been forgiven. But that has, unfortunately, not achieved anything.

The forgiveness treated the symptom, their actions, but not the cause. Forgiveness without a lesson is meaningless. If you do not learn and change you are forever doomed to continue or end up how you were before. Sometimes the best course of action is the harshest and most difficult. Its easy to forgive someone and make all the problems go away. Its quite another to change the underlying behaviour that governs it.

I'm sure there are many instances where my reasoning can be applied, but I shall leave it up to others to decide where they may use it. And as I write this, Master Haruki replies to the topic. I think my reasoning can be applied here. Why should bankers behave? If they behave then they maintain jobs and are well off, but if they don't then we just give them money and then they suffer no punishment. We have essentially forgiven them, treated the symptoms (they ran out of money) but what have you done to fix the cause? Nothing. They have no reason to behave, because they are never punished.

Brother Jestor I think your idea is purely a matter of logistics. I think it's the same as, someone owes me money, I owe someone else money, so why doesn't the person who owes me money just skip me out and give it straight to the person I owe money to. That is simpler, but more complicated. I don't want to be caught up in someone elses affairs, I would only like to deal with the people that I deal with, I don't want to complicate things for myself, by bringing in people i've never lent money to.

Akkarin you make a good point about an ignorant or stubborn person. How ever your making you point very specific so that your conclusion is the only one. Now if we deal with general ignorant and stubborn people we mostly just stay way from them unlike most people who would cast them out. If the person was a friend or some one important...well there are at least 3 to 5 different Jedi methods to deal with them not to mention some that we might come up with on the spot.

Now lets not lose track of what we're trying to prove.

Your trying to say that you cant just forgive people over and over because the wont learn. How ever thats not what your really saying if you apply your specific point to EVERY ONE. Yes that one person cant be forgiven but there are lots of people that can be. MOST in fact just want a little attention and help. As Jedi what do we do?

Thats really the hard part about being a Jedi. Making the best decisions we can to help out. Knowing that NOT applying absolutes is a door that swings both ways.

Master Daniel I think, although I might be wrong, that you may have taken my point a bit too far. I did mention that forgiveness can be used when it is appropriate (in the second paragraph).

The point I was making is that forgiveness is second to changing someone. Forgiveness is just, in my mind, something that is a bit trivial, as I said it treats the symptoms but not the underlying cause.

If you really want to change someone then you'll help them to change themselves, you will change something about them. That is what help we, as Jedi, need to give not just offer forgiveness. If they've changed, then we do not need forgiveness, they will forgive themselves through the way they treat others with their new way of thinking.

In this video listen and wait for the part when he talks about people doing things for FREE! Thats us! We give help in a lot of ways for free just for a greater purpose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc&feature=channel