My Opinion. Jestor's Lie

I've never seen a single member of the council shut someone down without a discussion first. Also, this "telling" ignores other factors. Paying attention to other areas of the forum will show you just how much the Temple is willing to change and how often that change takes place. Also, I'm pretty sure The Council does not claim to always be right, but they DO claim to be the authority here, which is their right. Don't confuse the two.

I seriously doubt anyone here assumes or believes the TOTJO isn't going to continue to change over time, really I'd have to question the intelligence of anyone who does. Apparently I'm not the one "missing the point." There's constructive criticism, and then there's nit picking and straight out whining, which is what many if us are hearing. Hell, I've had it out with the Council before, for changes to the temple no less. I learned a valuable lesson, you want changes, get apprenticed, graduate and show everyone you have time and energy invested into this...

The problem isn't in wanting certain things to change...

It's wanting things to change in YOUR way and in YOUR time because it's how you want it and your way is the only RIGHT way.

It's wanting those things to change, claiming that most people agree with you when in fact the majority of people actually disagree.

It's in wanting this to change despite how it might affect the majority because it's what you want and what you want is all that matters.

So... if the majority is happy with something the way it is and doesn't want it to change, and you're not willing to accept that, then why is it unreasonable to say, "well if you're not finding what you want and need here, perhaps it's time to move on"? Why is it reasonable to keep wanting to change things the way you want it to be so you can stay and make the majority unhappy and not want to stick around anymore?

That's the problem.

You don't speak for the majority here... and you can't just expect things to be changed YOUR WAY!!!

I wouldn't want you to leave though. Insight is knowledge, and sharing it is why we are here. Who is going to point out the stupid everyone is ignoring? (besides Ren and Zenchi that is)

I'm not telling anyone they should leave. I just don't understand the point of all the whining and complaining. If TotJO wasn't what I wanted or needed, then I would move on... simple. I wouldn't expect it to change just to suit me when it quite obviously works for others. That's just arrogance and selfishness...

And to want to make changes that will benefit only a select few rather than the majority is wrong. If changes are going to be made, it should be to the benefit and best interest of the majority. Not just a few people who do the most whining and complaining.

I surely do not want anyone feeling that I am telling them to leave, that's simply not the case. I merely suggested it was an option in my own discreet way. The problem is that a few seem to make the assumption they have some clout, and have not done the work that usually comes with it. I've learned the hard way, simply finishing the IP program is not enough for a member to make suggestions pointing towards drastic changes, and then expect the Council to start thinking about making changes. And as Naya said, those changes need to benefit the majority, not the few...

Man O man what is all this. :dry:

"If you dont like it leave" - :sick:

There is no growth from that. If you dont like what is being said on this thread well...I wont tell ya what to do. :whistle:

Jediism is about you just as much as it is about other Jedi. SO if its not good for EVERY ONE its not good. This isn't a new issue. People have been asking these questions since I joined...hell I've asked these questions before.

Concepts of light and dark whether they are against each other or parts of the same thing have knowledge within them. WHY NOT use them?

There is no ignorance there is knowledge.

No matter what you do or how long you hold you breath we will always be Movie Jedi because you're not using names of things that inspired Lucas, your using a name he gave the main protagonists in his work. If you dont want to be called movie Jedi than choose a different name.

Old minds think: How do we fix these problems?
New minds think: How do we make things the way we want them to be?

I agree steamboat, TOTJO is not in its final form we have a lot of growing up to do and the only way we can do that is if we agree to let go of things that aren't working.

I've been told over and over again that there is no light/dark side that "things just are". If I express a problem with it by default its assumed that I some how dont understand. As if thats the only possible reason why I have a problem with it. Because it wasn't understood.

My apprentice once told me that "If you find truth you wont be left with an answer but with better questions".

"There is no light/dark side things just are" has no growth for me because its just an answer. Now you could argue that there is growth and you'd be correct but for me there isn't. Again I might just be limited but it seems others have the same problem.

All I can say is that you dont make thing the way you want them to be by telling people to leave or make their own TOTJO. Thats like saying if you dont feel you're free go someplace else. If you have to go some place to be free than you're not free. :dry:

I'd suggest that we stop teaching "There is no light/dark side things just are" as if its the ONLY possible truth. I don't care WHO said it or HOW many times it was said or in WHAT context it was said just STOP.

Second stop teaching that we're not movie Jedi because we are. As In people that are so humbled by the Force that we seek to learn from and about it. And EXACT parallel between movie Jedi and us.

You dont all agree on what the Force is? Well first is that a problem? Second instead of trying to fix it why dont we just make things the way we want them to be? How do you do that? By asking ourselves questions.

Do we want every one to agree? Is that our goal as Jedi?

I really dont understand why this is so difficult. Learn about the Force and protect those in need. So easy to be a Jedi. Now if you're talking about Ranks and degrees and lessons and teaching well then those things dont make some one a Jedi.

I have a lot more to say but I'll stop here...

*cough*

'If you don't like the way we do things here - you don't have to stay' --F.A.Q


Just sayin'

It's a platform of a specific common doctrine, which individuals can generate a more complex personal structure from it.

This process here can happen in the open with all members, privately with others, or with a Training Master within an Apprenticeship... or it might already exist and they just want to help and share with others etc.

I guess some would like the doctrine to be have greater prescribed structure, but then that starts to push others away a bit.... though I think it might expand/refine over time by the action of agreement amongst its senior members.

The point being the doctrine is not the 'total', just the binding element. I think its safe to say we prefer Jedi to find their path and perhaps even constantly evolve it.

In regards to the Jedi title, I think in the EU the younglings, padawans and apprenticed were called Jedi by outsiders because they belonged to the Order, and the rank's dictate specific duty and accomplishment within that Order. So in that regard, and keeping in mind the open arm's of the Temple to individual beliefs if aligned to the doctrine, I think it makes best sense to acknowledge the title Jedi on the oath (which is important) and the successful membership, and not pretend to judge people to something so personal as their adherence to their belief.. thats what the oath is for.

Just a note. I didn't say leave, I said If you don't believe what we believe, then don't feel obligated to believe it. And if you don't like the way totjo is developing, create your own. Show us if you believe there is a better way.