My Opinion. Jestor's Lie

I sincerely doubt those "fifty" as you so claim bothered to finish the IP program. There are plenty of members here who have no problem with it. Again, the door ain't locked if things are so bad...

Steamboat - so the loudest opinions must be right? Just because you see some people complaining about the same things over and over, that does not mean they are a majority. It simply means they voice their opinions more often.

I tend to believe that we see more negative lately because the Jedi who are content with the Temple as it is do not feel the need to praise everything in the forums the way naysayers like to rain down criticism on a daily basis.

Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease... that doesn't make it any less annoying.

elizabeth wrote: It seems the same people keep bringing stuff up again and again
and don't like the chilli?
Go eat somewhere else

I prefer to tip the waiterd with my very valuable bitchy and whiney insight

I don't know, maybe people would be satisfied with a sermon that tells you how to use the sermons to better yourself? As I said- I don't see why the sermons are not enough to help further other's education.

But if someone is going to complain, perhaps it would help to outlined fully why the IP is lacking? No one knows what they can do unless they are given the reasons that something is found to be lacking. Perhaps you have, Steamboat, I just don't know where it is outlined.

And sometimes being content isn't enough to move forward. Water stuck in the corner of a pond is stagnate, but it is content being there because it doesn't keep moving forward. The rushing river isn't content standing still- it wants to see everything before it reaches the final destination, the Ocean. Or river. But even there, it can still explore.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Akkarin: What you misunderstand is that none of you guys actually say anything when the question is asked. Westcli and Br. John at least refer to the material and say "this is what it means to be a Jedi". In PM, MSCH has also come time and said "this is why I feel I am a Jedi". I have standards- but you guys have this idea that they are much higher than they actually are. I hold knights and masters to very high standards- but those which claim Jedi- all that requires is striving to live by a Jedi Code/Creed that is equal to or greater than the Skywalker creed and/or 4(5) line code. Understanding that code is important.

Jestor: That's sorta sad, considering that one of the tenets of this order is to defend Jediism. How can you do so if you never discuss what makes one a Jedi or not.

Someone in here mentioned that they feel it is a disservice to non-apprentices to not have ore in-depth studies on Jediism. I happen to agree. A mentorship should be about aiding someone in exploring how they can best live the Jedi Path and then how to pass on the tradition. Some people do not need the apprenticeship to accomplish this understanding, so why not afford them more than just a initiates program to help them further studies in Jediism. Sermons are great- but apparently that isn't enough either (not sure why actually).

The only failing I see with the IP, is that I honestly believe someone could completely disagree with all of it and you would look at it and say: Wonderful!!!! You are a Jedi because you demonstrated great thought on the subjects. And that is what worries me most about the future of ToTJO with that mentality you have in the public view, Jestor. Because you are a great asset here- but there are a good number which see you as a detriment.

Either you are truly as Jedi (I believe you are) or you are not. If it I the latter- why hold status here as a Jedi (knight/master/clergy/etc)? It only servers as a disservice to the order to claim such and not believe it yourself.

I know what makes me a Jedi dear, and why I call myself one...

And, you can ask any of my 4 apprentices, I believe I help them figure out how they can be the best Jedi they can be...

IM not making Jestor clones, I am assisting them in making themselves better, as they see it, not as I see it...

I really dont have anything to prove to anyone...

I try not to hold my laurals out the for me to brag about in front of others, but, I would be willing to bet, with what I have done, and things I have accomplished, I do qualify to be a knight by your standards...

But, who cares?

Does that help you?

Does that help anyone else but me?

I have no secrets, but I dont run around tooting my own horn, ok, I do actually toot a horn, but, metaphorically, I dont...

Or judging, nor worrying if i meet your criteria...

There are different kinds of religions. Revealed religions have a sacred text from which theology and practice are founded. There are some religions that possess a sacred text, but are not revealed, and some religions are more a 'way-of-life'. Religions that do not have codified beliefs have no structure that can identify what is or is not correct belief. These religions then are said to value orthopraxy, correct action. It may be of value for us to discuss whether the Jediism of this Temple values orthopraxy over orthodoxy. The few brief statements regarding Jedi beliefs, three tenets, a code, a creed, 16 teachings, and 21 maxims each (seems to me) to encourage correct action. In these statements is posited (almost merely just suggested) some general values that provide a foundation for ethical action. Do definitions of what or who a Jedi is assume orthodoxy? Is it the case that the statements found on this site under 'Doctrine' are actually a guide to orthopraxy?

I find it interesting that the council is being attacked so regularly lately, on so many fronts, and by many who aren't even members.

I find it interesting that people are asking questions and then not actually reading the answers.

I find it interesting that people who are demanding definitions and not getting the ones they want are those who have in the past dismissed other peoples definitions.

I find it most interesting that people have asked for the definitions of light and dark, but translated that to mean Jedi vs Sith.

Im fascinated by the fact that many are being both rude and critical of a council that is responding with incredible grace, patience and tolerance to those who refuse to listen and seem determined to attack them no matter what their response.

Im discomforted by the fact that a council who works incredibly hard, sacrificing MANY MANY VOLUNTEER HOURS to ensure that this place runs and is available for you to come in and whinge about, is accused of not serving the people. You should be ashamed frankly. As I get to see first hand the time, effort and stress that members of the council endure FOR YOU I find your attitude rude and ungrateful, and unworthy behaviour of a Jedi. BY all means, question the council, but have the decency to do it with some decorum.

And Im bewildered by the constant complaints. This is TOTJO. Dont like our definitions or beliefs, then feel free to not believe them. Don't like the way TOTJO operates, go start your own TOTJO (if you haven't already). See if you can do any better.

"I am angry because I did not find what I was expecting. My ego is hurt and since we're the only two involved and I didn't hurt myself, you must have hurt me. I have to assume being hurt by you is an attack and so I am now justified in attacking you back. IF I hurt you enough maybe you will stop or change so that my ego doesn't hurt anymore. If it keeps happening I'll just leave. I'm not sticking around to get beaten on." - not rugadd

Brenna wrote: ...{Brenna's well-spoken and impassioned post}...

I agree with you on a great many of those counts. I do, however, disagree with the implication of contented stasis in the "structure" of TotJO.

Yes, the Council does a great deal more than any of us realize, on time they could be spending with their families or friends, or on their hobbies, or at work. Yes, being rude to the Council is stupid, not only because it's ill-directed rage, but because of the respect they deserve for the work that they do. Hell, being rude to anybody here is usually without justification.

But I find the "if you don't like it, leave" argument to be a bit...telling. It suggests that TotJO has reached its final form, which everyone here with two brain cells to rub together will agree is not the case at all; the Temple, like each of us, has a long road ahead of it, and there will be turns along the path. It also suggests that the Temple is always right--something I think we can, again, all agree isn't true because nobody is always right. Furthermore, it displays a level of complacency with where we are (which is poor form for people seeking a spiritual goal), and a complete unwillingness to hear criticism, which everyone should be skeptical of among any group of people, most especially a religion.

And it's rude as f***. Seriously, who says that?

no one's unwilling to hear criticism and maybe it is rude as f**k but I find this whole discussion and personal attack rude as f**k
I'm sick of always hearing moans from people that aren't willing to do the work, become a knight join the council and implement changes they think are required..
If you don't want to do that and just want to moan then I stick by
don't like it leave
however rude that may be!!