Misogynism

steamboat28 wrote:

Adder wrote: its just some men fear it will and make a lot of noise,

The reason men fear it is that it no longer what it was, and has become the biggest concentration of misandrist shouting on the planet.

That's the contusion, suffered previously only by women but now being rebalanced equally across genders, so yes men are now experiencing the downsides of the past patriarchal culture. Human's are pretty often hopeless at running things so there is always going to be plenty of examples of bad management and policy.

Perhaps it should be the main priority of mens movements to identify how to prove that females are not discriminated against as the best way to ease society out the effects of feminism - instead of getting all counter-revolutionary and defining themselves as victims like ren's recent link.

Ren, feminism is not sexist in the very name.

I'll let you look at the word again, in fact you can even grab an etymology dictionary just to be sure.

Feminism is about breaking down the idea that women must be feminine and men must be masculine and the idea that femininity is inherently weaker and less desirable.

Who/What has been promoting the idea that feminity is weaker and less desirable? I mean, besides feminism? It is feminists who demean the traditional roles of women. It is feminism that promotes laws which encourage setting lower standards for women. Queen Victoria, the leader of the most powerful empire ever, thought that feminists should get a good whipping. And that they would become hateful, heathen and disgusting. And that they would destroy womanly feelings and propriety. Sounds to me like that female anti-feminist thought very highly of womanly feelings and propriety.

It focuses on femininity because it is what is undesirable in our society today. It focuses on women because women are oppressed in more ways than men, but it doesn't try to hold men back. It is comfortable benefitting men as well as women.

Feminism is responsible for making it harder for men to become a firefighter than a woman. feminism has made it harder for men to become a computer scientist or an engineer than a woman. feminism has made it harder for men to enjoy their human right to a family life than a woman. Feminism has failed to demand that dangerous female criminals spend an appropriate amount of time in prison instead of being given light sentences by the-evil-patriarchy-that-is-making-everything-so-easy-for-men-and-so-difficult-for-women. Feminism has failed to prevent hate speech based on gender and has in fact been breeding it. Feminism has made it harder for women to get recognition for their hard work than men. Feminism breeds a climate of conflict between genders and for men and women to live together. It is very obvious to me, that, by its actions, not its pretensions, feminism is not only sexist in its name, but also at its core.

One of the most basic ways in which we condition ourselves into gender categories is segregation from the youngest age. From birth we witness that men and women must use different toilet facilities. Have feminists done anything to put an end to that disgraceful segregation? I would have thought you, specifically, would be very vocal about such an issue.

The word feminism can be seen to have a word similar to female at it's root, but a more accurate root is feminine. Which is not necessarily female, no matter how much we are told it is.

The idea that femininity is less desirable is at the core of our society. Men are told not to cry, to man up, they are made fun of for doing things that are seen as female, they are beaten up for doing things that are seen as too feminine, they are teased for being "whipped" if they submit to their girlfriends and wives in any way even for a few moments, they are ridiculed for doing "women's jobs" such as housework, family care, cooking, etc. And most of this comes from other men picking on them. It doesn't seem like much when it happens once or twice, but when it happens in real life, in the classroom, in the workplace, in acquaintance groups, in the media, it adds up. And it's not healthy for men or women for these attitudes to continue.

Since when is it harder for men to get into math and science fields than women? Technology and engineering fields in particular are still very hostile places for women, to the point where many women who are interested in those fields decide to go into something else because they don't think they can be happy in a job with such a hostile environment toward women. And the numbers of women in engineering programs was actually decreasing as of 2006 (I haven't been able to find more recent statistics).

I am all for gender neutral spaces. Parents tend to be strongly against the idea, but I do often advocate for gender neutral bathrooms, locker rooms, and campus housing policies. It just hasn't come up yet here.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: The word feminism can be seen to have a word similar to female at it's root, but a more accurate root is feminine. Which is not necessarily female, no matter how much we are told it is.

The idea that femininity is less desirable is at the core of our society. Men are told not to cry, to man up, they are made fun of for doing things that are seen as female, they are beaten up for doing things that are seen as too feminine, they are teased for being "whipped" if they submit to their girlfriends and wives in any way even for a few moments, they are ridiculed for doing "women's jobs" such as housework, family care, cooking, etc. And most of this comes from other men picking on them. It doesn't seem like much when it happens once or twice, but when it happens in real life, in the classroom, in the workplace, in acquaintance groups, in the media, it adds up. And it's not healthy for men or women for these attitudes to continue.

Since when is it harder for men to get into math and science fields than women? Technology and engineering fields in particular are still very hostile places for women, to the point where many women who are interested in those fields decide to go into something else because they don't think they can be happy in a job with such a hostile environment toward women. And the numbers of women in engineering programs was actually decreasing as of 2006 (I haven't been able to find more recent statistics).

I am all for gender neutral spaces. Parents tend to be strongly against the idea, but I do often advocate for gender neutral bathrooms, locker rooms, and campus housing policies. It just hasn't come up yet here.

have you seen most twenty first century relationships....... all of your thoughts are mostly outdated....

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Most western cultures are still oppressive to women and feminine men, but we fool ourselves into thinking we've eradicated sexism, which allows us to continue on in the way we have been. How am I not educating the ignorant? I post opinions backed up by facts. I post facts backed up by personal experience. Others argue back because they don't agree. Do I just stop there? When you are trying to talk to people who don't agree with you, it easily becomes an argument. That doesn't make it bad or wrong. It's just a style of communication.

Never said it was bad or wrong, though. I see that we will never come to an understanding because I don't believe you'll be satisfied with anything short of everybody agreeing with your opinions. I'd rather not nitpick because I think it's a waste of time. I haven't learned anything that I didn't know before. This is the reason I have to walk away from a conversation about this kind of thing every time it takes place. I get tired of hearing the same thing repeatedly, as if stating the same thing will get different results. I wish you peace.

MTFBWY.

Adder wrote: Perhaps it should be the main priority of mens movements to identify how to prove that females are not discriminated against as the best way to ease society out the effects of feminism - instead of getting all counter-revolutionary and defining themselves as victims like ren's recent link.

Yes, but how do you prove a negative? It's like trying to prove there is no god. That's a very difficult task, indeed.

Luthien wrote:

Adder wrote: Perhaps it should be the main priority of mens movements to identify how to prove that females are not discriminated against as the best way to ease society out the effects of feminism - instead of getting all counter-revolutionary and defining themselves as victims like ren's recent link.

Yes, but how do you prove a negative? It's like trying to prove there is no god. That's a very difficult task, indeed.

Feminism can encompass lots of aspects, but where its practically relevant to be discussing is the legal aspect. Where government had direct control like voting were easy to fix, but its in the workplace where authority is within corporate structures that it's more difficult.

Proving a negative in the workplace is about proving you protect against it proactively. Pay has to be equivalent, ascendency has to be demonstrated, mechanism's in place for dealing with gender issues fairly, effectively and applicable transparency. In fact a good way to demonstrate you do not allow discrimination is to demonstrate action against it.... hence concepts like affirmative action. Men's groups are often so caught up in hate that they do not realize that they have the opportunity to be involved in the death of feminism, but instead they are over-reacting and focusing on some weird biased personal negative hate campaign.

Equality is most obvious to people these days who were raised with equality as normal, so ppl often why bother with feminism...... but it was not long ago it was vastly different - and in many parts of the world non-existent still. The initial condition demonstrated both an inability for women to achieve fairly, and the restrictions that enabled the men to assert that discriminatory effect. The purpose of feminism is to reach a point where that is no longer possible. Getting to that point is not easy, hence the angry feedback from some men, but once its there it should be as simple as government saying; if you can prove the environment is not a place for discrimination to occur then there is no need for feminist type policies and initiatives.

This thread though was about some people here exhibiting hatred towards women, and I think Jedi shouldn't hate anyone IMO. Almost hate is one thing LOL, but even that is personal and should be expressed so widely or at a 'Temple'. Just my opinion though.

Your words are very transparent. Thank you for clarifying.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: The word feminism can be seen to have a word similar to female at it's root, but a more accurate root is feminine. Which is not necessarily female, no matter how much we are told it is.

feminist: First recorded in English 1894, from French féministe (1872). Ultimately from Latin fēminīnus, from fēmina (“woman”). See also feminine, feminism.
The word literally means focus on women. And that's exactly what feminists do.

The idea that femininity is less desirable is at the core of our society. Men are told not to cry, to man up, they are made fun of for doing things that are seen as female, they are beaten up for doing things that are seen as too feminine, they are teased for being "whipped" if they submit to their girlfriends and wives in any way even for a few moments, they are ridiculed for doing "women's jobs" such as housework, family care, cooking, etc. And most of this comes from other men picking on them. It doesn't seem like much when it happens once or twice, but when it happens in real life, in the classroom, in the workplace, in acquaintance groups, in the media, it adds up. And it's not healthy for men or women for these attitudes to continue.

I've never experienced any of this. I have witnessed whipped men though. And i'd say the general feeling men have in regard to that is a mix of sorrow and anger that someone would allow themselves to be enslaved like this.

Since when is it harder for men to get into math and science fields than women? Technology and engineering fields in particular are still very hostile places for women, to the point where many women who are interested in those fields decide to go into something else because they don't think they can be happy in a job with such a hostile environment toward women. And the numbers of women in engineering programs was actually decreasing as of 2006 (I haven't been able to find more recent statistics).

Quite a while now. Women generally still aren't interested in doing any of this for physiological reasons, but those that are interested (and say, send a CV to a potential employer) are more likely to be successful on the sole ground that they are female.

I am all for gender neutral spaces. Parents tend to be strongly against the idea, but I do often advocate for gender neutral bathrooms, locker rooms, and campus housing policies. It just hasn't come up yet here.

What has feminism, in its 100+ years history, done about it? If martin luther king junior could put an end to such segregation where race-based slavery had only recently been abolished, allow me to say that if feminism does indeed desire to put an end to gender discrimination, it has been highly incompetent in that area. Putting this into perspective with feminism's success in creating additional sexism, one has to wonder if feminism has anything to do with combatting sexism outside its public relations offices.

Also, as someone who has a child, has to use locker rooms with other men who have children (some of which are girls), and who has the opportunity to talk about all this stuff in the sauna, it is women, and only women who have a problem with it. Guys don't care and find it annoying to leave their children unattended in the other locker room (more than understandable since police statistics show children are safest when in the presence of their father), and i have observed that girls have zero problem with running around naked in a locker room full of naked men. It would seem young boys do not mind being surrounded by naked women either. When I was a teenager after my training session at the pool a plethora of mothers somewhat needed to help their kids put a pair of speedos on. In the common area. But the one guy who had to help his daughter in a closet in the "ladies" was heavily criticized and was asked to make different arrangements. When we asked about the double standard, the (female) managers told us "it's not the same" (And like fools we took it carte blanche).