A hidden history about humanity, dimensions and spirituality

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06 Dec 2018 15:57 #330206 by Kyrin Wyldstar

JLSpinner wrote: Agreed, lets keep the debunking out of the faith section. This is a space for people to explore spiritual matters. Something, of which, is the focus of a majority of our members.


I could not disagree with this statement more. Gist pretty much summed it up well and he is right, this is not a SIG and what Mr Turtle has posted here is not something I would even consider faith. He sure did not phrase it that way nor did he clarify his intention, even after he was directly asked to. I would say this thread needs moved if anything. Posting a 2 hour video of Sasquatch coming out of the 10th dimension and teaching dingos to eat babies is not a faith.

I see no reason to try and sensor responses in this forum just because a single individual does not like some of the responses. I see no rule anywhere that says any sort of response is not allowed so the suggestion that we broke a rule is unfounded. I stay out of the SIG forums and let those stand as they may. The difference is they actually discuss a faith! Mr Turtle comes here and has posted over and over the same content ad nauseam. And now to try and avoid critique he’s moving that same content to other sub forums. I would think this verges on antagonizing and spamming and should be dealt with. Especially after the council has already taken some of his content and created a journal for him. One he has yet to return to where he could post this sort of stuff in complete freedom.

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06 Dec 2018 15:59 #330207 by Twigga
Scientists have taken these anecdotal statements seriously, pooled hours of funds and research and time into gathering anecdotal evidence together, finding out if there is any correlation, if that correlation might have any causation. I think it is fair to share their work into these discussions. I don't see it as different. I see it as sharing viewpoints. It is sharing an anecdote of a sort. The anecdote of a very very tired scientist who did their very best in a lab, and here - this is the paper I published at the end of my research.

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06 Dec 2018 16:51 - 06 Dec 2018 18:27 #330209 by OB1Shinobi
In a place where people congregate in order label themselves after futuristic space wizards, i dont think its so unreasonable that some opportunity might be allowed for those who want to explore ideas about magic or alternative realities, or what-have-you, without all the scientists coming in to demand proof and declaring the topic bunk when no satisfactory proof is given.

Obviously we are a community committed to the pursuits of personal growth and honesty with each other and its not realistic to expect a totally incredulous proposition or topic to go on unchallenged. “As iron sharpens iron, so one person strenghtens another”- we learn how to be good at thinking by exploring subjects in an organized and rational way. How to think well is a life skill that carries over to all sorts of areas and i know many peope here have benefited from the opportunity to participate in the types of discussions which demonstrate and cultivate that ability.

One of the points i feel is relevant to this instance is OP’s age. Not my business to guess a number but i remember a time in my life when all i wanted to talk about was Batman and ninjas and i feel thats a reasonable comparison. Yaba wants to see himself as a magical person in a magical world— is the community of futuristic space wizards going to tell him he isnt? Lol. We are also committed to the ideals of tolerance and acceptance and Yabuturtle seems to want to stay where he is, so to speak....

Wheres the middle ground? Who needs to adjust and exaclty what adjustment need be made? Is there a process Yabaturtle could learn so he can walk the line between the merely fantastic and the outright incredulous? Is there some point where the scientists should just chill out and let the space wizards have their fun?

"One should respect public opinion in so far as is necessary to avoid starvation and to keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond that is voluntary submission to an unnecessary tyranny, and is likely to interfere with happiness in all kinds of ways"
-Lord Russel
Last edit: 06 Dec 2018 18:27 by OB1Shinobi.
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06 Dec 2018 17:54 #330211 by Twigga
Thank you Obi1, I think that hits it precisely, and it is why I have suggested that small process of applying the phrase "In my opinion", "My experience is", "I was excited by the claims of..." Being self referential about a personal experience seems a reasonable request, and doesn't remove any element of space wizardry, does it?

I do not wish to silence space wizards, or why would I be here revelling in all your company? I enjoy it, and embrace it with open arms.
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06 Dec 2018 17:59 #330212 by Gisteron
Hmm, I guess I just take people and topics more seriously.
We have a humour section for all of the silly fun stuff, the fiction and mythology more broadly is discussed in the common teachings and individual apprenticeships, and in public all of the time, as are possible interpretations and their utility/applicability to our real lives, and you and Kyrin and I have participated in those discussions without causing much of a fuss, engaging with the stories, and entertaining ideas within them. We not only let people have their fun, we actively participate in it.
It would, however, I find, be irresponsible to just sit idly by watching people sacrifice their critical faculties on the altar of space wizard giggles. I don't know how old Yabu is, nor do I care. To me he is a person first, and that's how I treat him. I engage with him as I would with most others, with honesty, patience, and about as much respect as I can muster. That respect is often great enough that I couldn't just not take someone seriously when they are being serious on the grounds of "well, we call ourselves Jedi anyway, so how serious can we really be?".
Is that position an extreme, and the healthy middle ground between it and the other one? That is for each of us to judge on our own. I for one didn't come here to demand proof or debunk anything. I asked what was going to be discussed and am still waiting on an answer. The worst I did here was getting slightly agitated at some hypocrisy and a cheeky nitpick about dinosaurs.

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06 Dec 2018 21:46 - 06 Dec 2018 21:49 #330217 by Adder

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

JLSpinner wrote: Agreed, lets keep the debunking out of the faith section. This is a space for people to explore spiritual matters. Something, of which, is the focus of a majority of our members.


I could not disagree with this statement more. Gist pretty much summed it up well and he is right, this is not a SIG and what Mr Turtle has posted here is not something I would even consider faith.

<snip>

I stay out of the SIG forums and let those stand as they may. The difference is they actually discuss a faith!


Yea it's in that area, so falls within that category. We cannot have a subarea for every faith people might want to discuss, so it does not need its own subarea with SIG. This is its location;
Forum - Special Interest Groups - Faiths - A hidden history about humanity, dimensions and spirituality


Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Mr Turtle comes here and has posted over and over the same content ad nauseam. And now to try and avoid critique he’s moving that same content to other sub forums. I would think this verges on antagonizing and spamming and should be dealt with. Especially after the council has already taken some of his content and created a journal for him. One he has yet to return to where he could post this sort of stuff in complete freedom.



If you don't like it, don't read it or respond perhaps. If you think its akin to trolling then we all know the best way to deal with trolls is to avoid them. There is nothing wrong with people posting topics you don't like... the more (people posting topics) the merrier so long as they aren't breaches of the rules.

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06 Dec 2018 22:12 - 06 Dec 2018 22:19 #330218 by Adder

Gisteron wrote: Hmm, I guess I just take people and topics more seriously.
We have a humour section for all of the silly fun stuff, the fiction and mythology more broadly is discussed in the common teachings and individual apprenticeships, and in public all of the time, as are possible interpretations and their utility/applicability to our real lives, and you and Kyrin and I have participated in those discussions without causing much of a fuss, engaging with the stories, and entertaining ideas within them. We not only let people have their fun, we actively participate in it.
It would, however, I find, be irresponsible to just sit idly by watching people sacrifice their critical faculties on the altar of space wizard giggles. I don't know how old Yabu is, nor do I care. To me he is a person first, and that's how I treat him. I engage with him as I would with most others, with honesty, patience, and about as much respect as I can muster. That respect is often great enough that I couldn't just not take someone seriously when they are being serious on the grounds of "well, we call ourselves Jedi anyway, so how serious can we really be?".
Is that position an extreme, and the healthy middle ground between it and the other one? That is for each of us to judge on our own. I for one didn't come here to demand proof or debunk anything. I asked what was going to be discussed and am still waiting on an answer. The worst I did here was getting slightly agitated at some hypocrisy and a cheeky nitpick about dinosaurs.


I think that is why faith is its own thing, but faith can be seen to sit outside of delusion - by being belief on topics where no evidence exists to disprove......... rather then belief on topics where evidence exists to the contrary. Delusion is unhealthy, but faith can have real practical import into spirituality. I feel that distinction is important in regards to the operation of forums on this particular topic and imagine it is why we have a faith section - hence my post yesterday outlining how I see proper use of it.

And thanks for not asking a members age, because minors are not allowed to say their age and therefore asking puts them almost in a no-win position where it could be seen they were a minor because they did not reply.... sorta thing. Though its probably safer to stay away from the age discrimination thing, I know in some areas of mental health adults can have mental ages way younger - and in the same vein, it's pretty impolite to try and use that publicly as a justification for your own critical opinions of someone to their content - remember the rule about dealing with topics not people.

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06 Dec 2018 22:18 - 06 Dec 2018 22:20 #330219 by Gisteron
Not quite sure why I have to repeat this a third time, but nothing about this thread's topic is the kind of thing you wouldn't find in open discussions nor is it anything like what you would find in the SIGs. The only reason it is here is so that this entirely off-topic argument can be had in case lying and whining doesn't quite cut it. How you fail to see through something this obvious is a greater mystery than any of those that I assume would have gotten attention in the thread if we had established and stuck with a topic.


Adder wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Mr Turtle comes here and has posted over and over the same content ad nauseam. And now to try and avoid critique he’s moving that same content to other sub forums. I would think this verges on antagonizing and spamming and should be dealt with. Especially after the council has already taken some of his content and created a journal for him. One he has yet to return to where he could post this sort of stuff in complete freedom.



If you don't like it, don't read it or respond perhaps. If you think its akin to trolling then we all know the best way to deal with trolls is to avoid them. There is nothing wrong with people posting topics you don't like... the more (people posting topics) the merrier so long as they aren't breaches of the rules.

Oh if only, if only this applied to posts all the same. See, I can't for the life of me recall anyone expressing any dissatisfaction with the threads existence. Noone is complaining about not liking topics posted. The only actual complaints I hear is about a certain non-trivial kind of response that can actually make for interesting discussion. Look, there is nothing wrong about not liking being engaged with or watching others being engaged with. There is nothing wrong about not liking people. You can tell Kyrin, or myself for that matter, that our kind ain't welcome here, it's okay. But don't pretend like it is us who are whining about things we don't like when we actually do and would much rather talk about the topic, when clearly it is you who is disliking something about it. The entire reason we can't talk about the topic is because some people want to instead argue about what amounts to literally noone doing anything wrong whatsoever.



Also, on the same note, as of the composing of this message, the FAQ still says that there are currently five SIGs and it lists five, and "Faiths" is not on that list. A nitpick, no doubt, but if the argument is going to keep coming up, I might as well point out the error again.

Last edit: 06 Dec 2018 22:20 by Gisteron.

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06 Dec 2018 22:31 - 06 Dec 2018 22:38 #330220 by Adder

Gisteron wrote: Not quite sure why I have to repeat this a third time, but nothing about this thread's topic is the kind of thing you wouldn't find in open discussions nor is it anything like what you would find in the SIGs. The only reason it is here is so that this entirely off-topic argument can be had in case lying and whining doesn't quite cut it. How you fail to see through something this obvious is a greater mystery than got any attention in the thread.



It was posted in this area I presume because it was operating on concepts of faith. Just because you decide a topic can be posted elsewhere is entirely irrelevant. So keep repeating.it you feel the need to for some reason but it makes no difference to me as its moot.

Gisteron wrote: Oh if only, if only this applied to posts all the same. See, I can't for the life of me recall anyone expressing any dissatisfaction with the threads existence. Noone is complaining about not liking topics posted. The only actual complaints I hear is about a certain non-trivial kind of response that can actually make for interesting discussion. Look, there is nothing wrong about not liking being engaged with or watching others being engaged with. There is nothing wrong about not liking people. You can tell Kyrin, or myself for that matter, that our kind ain't welcome here, it's okay. But don't pretend like it is us who are whining about things we don't like when we actually do and would much rather talk about the topic, when clearly it is you who is disliking something about it. The entire reason we can't talk about the topic is because some people want to instead argue about what amounts to literally noone doing anything wrong whatsoever.



That's a misrepresentation of what is being discussed, so another topic entirely I suppose.... as broadening the scope of what is being discussed to outside Faith forums and saying its not relevant, when what is being discussed is regarding Faith forums.... is just noise I guess? Or do you have some tangible point? The purpose of a forum area is integral to its use, otherwise we'd just have one big discussion area. Structure is what allows focus to enable refined effort and perhaps outcomes. They are even named to represent the nature of interest so intent can be aligned with participation. It's why I'm not having this discussion in the similar topic in the Open Discussion area.... because its a different area with a different purpose.

Gisteron wrote: Also, on the same note, as of the composing of this message, the FAQ still says that there are currently five SIGs and it lists five, and "Faiths" is not on that list. A nitpick, no doubt, but if the argument is going to keep coming up, I might as well point out the error again.



Ya think. Well if nitpicking the letter of the law is how you like to operate outside it then that is why the world ends up with stupid large bodies of laws. I'll just call it the spirit of the law because its always been designed and used to allow focus on those areas without critique of those areas. The laws are often out dated, but certainly if you were being held to some administrative or disciplinary action I would recommend using the letter of the law as much as possible.

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06 Dec 2018 22:44 - 06 Dec 2018 22:53 #330221 by OB1Shinobi

Gisteron wrote: Hmm, I guess I just take people and topics more seriously.



True. I dont take much of anything very seriously here, anymore.

We have a humour section for all of the silly fun stuff, the fiction and mythology more broadly is discussed in the common teachings and individual apprenticeships, and in public all of the time, as are possible interpretations and their utility/applicability to our real lives, and you and Kyrin and I have participated in those discussions without causing much of a fuss, engaging with the stories, and entertaining ideas within them. We not only let people have their fun, we actively participate in it.



Yea. We’re all pretty freakin awesome, i agree.

It would, however, I find, be irresponsible to just sit idly by watching people sacrifice their critical faculties on the altar of space wizard giggles.



“Space wizard giggles” made me lol

Anyway, in the case of Yabuturtle lets just be real: hes not sacrificing anything: he never developed it to begin with. And hes not interested. I dont think he even reads your posts anymore. Or if he does its a cursory review, skipping all the parts that are either difficult to read or contrary to what he already believes—which basically means skipping them altogether lol You going to club him iger the head with those “critical faculties”? You might find on impact that theres less substance than youd expected, lol


I don't know how old Yabu is, nor do I care. To me he is a person first, and that's how I treat him.



That reminds me of this:




I engage with him as I would with most others, with honesty, patience, and about as much respect as I can muster.



Im gonna give credit where credit is due: there have been many times when ive read your replies to Yabu and thought “Gist is being very self-controlled in the way hes talking” ... meaning ive been impressed with how you kept returning to the conversations maturely and stayed focused on the points, without throwing in unnecessary personal barbs. And i believe he would benefit greatly from reciprocating the dialogue. I just dont think its gonna happen.

That respect is often great enough that I couldn't just not take someone seriously when they are being serious on the grounds of "well, we call ourselves Jedi anyway, so how serious can we really be?".



This is the one im wrestling with the most. Everybody comes here looking for something a little bit different and the Community has got to be of service in more than one way, to more than one kind of person. I really dont want to insitgate a culture of “woo” silliness. But theres also people here who believe in some very....unconventional things. Shamanism and Magick and Psy and what have you. Some of those people i have come to like and respect over the years that ive been here and Id like to see them be able to talk about topics that are, lets say, unscientific, if they want to. We will never get past the “prove it” part of the discussion if we require every claim to be substantiated with confirmable, objective evidence.

Is that position an extreme, and the healthy middle ground between it and the other one? That is for each of us to judge on our own. I for one didn't come here to demand proof or debunk anything. I asked what was going to be discussed and am still waiting on an answer. The worst I did here was getting slightly agitated at some hypocrisy and a cheeky nitpick about dinosaurs.



Yea he still hasnt answered your original question, lol. In combat sports we’d say hes “ducking you” - meaning he is afraid and doesnt want to face you, lol


&quot;One should respect public opinion in so far as is necessary to avoid starvation and to keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond that is voluntary submission to an unnecessary tyranny, and is likely to interfere with happiness in all kinds of ways&quot;
-Lord Russel
Last edit: 06 Dec 2018 22:53 by OB1Shinobi.

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