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05 Dec 2018 19:18 #330147 by Yabuturtle

Silvermane wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:

My psychic powers inform me that you made this up.

You can do better than this. Be coachable!


I agree that people should be more coach-able and willing to accept feedback. However I believe the feedback needs to be constructive to help someone grow and not just tell them they are wrong. The feedback also needs to have provable facts in it as well, especially if you are blatantly telling someone they are wrong.

To play Devil's Advocate on what you said, OB1, how do you know that Yabuturtle made up what happened to him in the forest? Were you physically there when it happened? What proof do you offer, besides your own opinion on what is real and what is not, to substantiate your claim? Yabuturtle told us something he experienced and I've spoken with others who have experienced the same phenomenon. None of them had proof to back it up but does that mean they are instantly lying? Do we instantly discredit someone because it does not fit into our reality? Something to think about.


It's ok. I wouldn't worry about what they say. I never understood that. I feel like we should try respect each other's experiences instead of putting each other down. It doesn't help us grow. Much like how if I am in a Jedi forum and say "lolz you didn't experience the force" It's kind of arrogant really.

On another note, I noticed you are into the norse religion which I find interesting. I know some of those videos like the ones I was posting talk about the mythologies. I have known many religions talk about the different realms. I wanted to ask if perhaps the norse faith touches on the subject of different realms aside from the afterlife.

Interestingly In Celtic religion there is the Otherworld which is debatable and somewhat tricky as celts hardly wrote stuff down. Some had said if you died, you ended up in this world and if you died there you end up back here? Something interesting I had found almost like reincarnation and you are born into another body but in a different world

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05 Dec 2018 20:24 - 05 Dec 2018 20:28 #330148 by Silvermane

Yabuturtle wrote:

Silvermane wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:

My psychic powers inform me that you made this up.

You can do better than this. Be coachable!


I agree that people should be more coach-able and willing to accept feedback. However I believe the feedback needs to be constructive to help someone grow and not just tell them they are wrong. The feedback also needs to have provable facts in it as well, especially if you are blatantly telling someone they are wrong.

To play Devil's Advocate on what you said, OB1, how do you know that Yabuturtle made up what happened to him in the forest? Were you physically there when it happened? What proof do you offer, besides your own opinion on what is real and what is not, to substantiate your claim? Yabuturtle told us something he experienced and I've spoken with others who have experienced the same phenomenon. None of them had proof to back it up but does that mean they are instantly lying? Do we instantly discredit someone because it does not fit into our reality? Something to think about.


It's ok. I wouldn't worry about what they say. I never understood that. I feel like we should try respect each other's experiences instead of putting each other down. It doesn't help us grow. Much like how if I am in a Jedi forum and say "lolz you didn't experience the force" It's kind of arrogant really.

On another note, I noticed you are into the norse religion which I find interesting. I know some of those videos like the ones I was posting talk about the mythologies. I have known many religions talk about the different realms. I wanted to ask if perhaps the norse faith touches on the subject of different realms aside from the afterlife.

Interestingly In Celtic religion there is the Otherworld which is debatable and somewhat tricky as celts hardly wrote stuff down. Some had said if you died, you ended up in this world and if you died there you end up back here? Something interesting I had found almost like reincarnation and you are born into another body but in a different world


Yes. The Norse Mythology has 9 worlds in it:
Niflheim
Muspelheim
Asgard
Midgard
Jotunheim
Vanaheim
Alfheim
Svartalfheim
Helheim

Most the Æsir (Norse Gods) live in Asgard while the humans live on Midgard. It doesn’t take much to look up some information on it. If you really want some of the best information I would recommend reading the Poetic Edda. It is a long book and it’s all poems but it has most of the information pertaining to the Norse mythology. I will tell you though, it is not an easy read so if you want simple, you can find sites that have a lot of the information pulled from the Eddas and listed for easier reading. If you are gathering information from the MCU, you are barking up the wrong tree. That’s like trying to find historical facts in reading or watching “Interview with a Vampire”.

As for what the others are saying, they aren’t doing it to be malicious or to be arrogant. There are many people here who like a strong, in-depth discussion and they can get pretty animated when the discussions heat up. They also supply facts and ways to find/check those facts. Believe me, Gisteron used to get my blood boiling at times because of the way he would phrase things and I would feel like he was being arrogant and condescending. I’ve since learned that is not what he is doing but he is very blunt and to the point, which many people, myself included, thought he was just being rude. Like I said previously, you have to be willing to take the feedback that is given. Personal experiences are great but if they are on the far side of most people’s believability spectrum you have to be ready for the hard questions and be able to present facts to back it up. Also, don’t get so easily offended. It is easier said than done sometimes but we are all here to learn and grow. If you aren’t willing to open yourself to the information the are trying to share with you, you are stunting your own growth.

MTFBWY

Rand Silvermane

Apprentice
Training Master: Rosalyn J
Last edit: 05 Dec 2018 20:28 by Silvermane. Reason: Fixing quote box
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05 Dec 2018 21:50 #330152 by Silvermane

OB1Shinobi wrote: Thank you Silvermane for being a respectful poster and speaking up in a reasonable tone. I do hope my reply seems reasonable. Im an irreverent bastrd and sometimes my words seem hardher than my actual mood. I hope thats not the case here.

You're welcome and your reply was very reasonable good sir. When we are blunt and to the point our words seem to be more harsh and criticizing but this day and age has bred thin-skinned individuals who struggle with being hit with the truth in such a way. People striving to be Jedi need to learn to accept those “blows” as a learning experience. If I remember correctly, the last time I was here, for one of the longer stints, you and I were friends and had many good conversations as well.

I’ve already explained that my powers revealed the truth to me. My connection with the Force. I double confirmed it with a reading of my Tarot Cards. Are you questioning my powers? My connection with the Force? Do you have some proof that the Force didn’t show me the truth? Were you physically there with me when I read the Cards?

Lol

The better question is “how do you not know this is a kid teling tales?”

When you first mentioned that, I was not sure if you were being sarcastic or honest. The written word is sometimes hard to decipher in such a way, lol. I do not question your abilities or what the Force has shown you, I was merely playing the Devil’s Advocate to offer up questions, not just for Yabuturtle, but in general. The reason being is that my reality, your reality, Yabuturtle’s reality is all different. We believe, think and see things differently so who’s to say that my reality is more true than yours or his? We cannot do that. Now that being said, when you start trying to give facts and say what is true for the whole world but are not backing up those facts with hard evidence and keep denying the provable facts that are being presented, that is being close minded and willfully ignorant and that is not the Jedi way. I’ve spoken with Yabuturtle regarding this and hope he will open himself up more to what is being said to him.

Im definitely not saying we should go nit picking Yaba’s (or anyone elses) posts to call them liars for every unusual detail. Im saying that Yabaturtle has a history of “white lies” on this forum and in my opinion it is the RESPONSIBILITY of any and all adults who happen to be around, - from time to time, at least - to explain to the young man that the people around him are aware of what hes doing (most of us, anyway), that he loses our respect when he does it, and that theres a MUCH better/more useful/powerful way to carry himself.

I agree. It is our duty to separate the fact from the fiction and provide true and honest feedback so people can get correct information. This is a little more difficult when it comes to supernatural personal experiences because there is no way to prove or disprove it. When someone has shown themselves to be on the side of dishonest it does make it harder to trust in their word and their personal experiences. In that case, I would say, to Yabuturtle, to stay away from subjects that are borderline fantasy and stick with conversations that can be backed up with hard evidence. Rebuild that trust and prove yourself by action.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I think you need to take OB1s quote for what it truly is. A bit of sarcasm that serves the purpose of rejecting the claim that Mr Turtle made. OB1 is not saying it could not have happened, only that he does not believe it happened. In this case OB1 does not have to provide evidence that it did not happen. You asking for evidence from OB1 is actually a logical fallacy called shifting the burden of proof.

Not necessarily. What I did was ask OB1 how he knew Turtle to be 100% making things up but also challenge him to think about how he looks at and responds to anyone else who is making the same type of claim. I also believe that OB1’s response was full of worthwhile information and answered exactly what I was looking for. I do appreciate your willingness to back up OB1, though he hardly needs it, and also offer evidence to further prove what OB1 was talking about.

Rand Silvermane

Apprentice
Training Master: Rosalyn J
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06 Dec 2018 02:14 - 06 Dec 2018 02:14 #330169 by Yabuturtle
I understand people's responses. I just want people to understand the difference between a debate and a discussion. Especially since this in on the well, Faith part of discussion. i.e. to have faith in something. Something to believe in.

The topic as many forgot, was to discuss about hidden universes. Not debate on whether hidden universes exist or not.
Last edit: 06 Dec 2018 02:14 by Yabuturtle.
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06 Dec 2018 02:49 #330171 by Silvermane

Yabuturtle wrote: I understand people's responses. I just want people to understand the difference between a debate and a discussion. Especially since this in on the well, Faith part of discussion. i.e. to have faith in something. Something to believe in.

The topic as many forgot, was to discuss about hidden universes. Not debate on whether hidden universes exist or not.


Keep in mind that you also get the choice to go down the rabbit holes with people who are deviating from the subject of the discussion. There are ways to politely remind them that their line of questioning or comments is not in line with the subject and ask them to keep it on topic. Please also make sure to clearly state what that topic is and what you want the subject matter to be. If you say "time slips and different dimensions... GO" people are going to take that as an open subject to discuss belief or disbelief and a wide range of other things around it. Be specific in your intentions on how you would like the conversations to go and be willing to direct those conversations. If you follow Alice down the rabbit hole and let someone direct the thread with something off topic, you chose to engage in it and allowed it to happen. Just some food for thought.

Rand Silvermane

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Training Master: Rosalyn J
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06 Dec 2018 05:56 #330175 by Gisteron

Yabuturtle wrote: I understand people's responses. I just want people to understand the difference between a debate and a discussion. Especially since this in on the well, Faith part of discussion. i.e. to have faith in something. Something to believe in.

The topic as many forgot, was to discuss about hidden universes. Not debate on whether hidden universes exist or not.

I don't see any difference whatsoever. And the fact that this is in the faiths subforum despite not being about any faiths is really irrelevant considering how you have the exact same opposition to any and all critical discourse in the discussions subforum as well. I thought you would bring up the place you posted it in eventually, as yet another layer of protection against the horrors of actual discussion. Didn't take long...

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06 Dec 2018 06:14 - 06 Dec 2018 06:15 #330179 by Adder

Gisteron wrote: I don't see any difference whatsoever. And the fact that this is in the faiths subforum despite not being about any faiths is really irrelevant considering how you have the exact same opposition to any and all critical discourse in the discussions subforum as well. I thought you would bring up the place you posted it in eventually, as yet another layer of protection against the horrors of actual discussion. Didn't take long...


Yab is right IMO, its a 'faith' section in a 'special interest group' section.. if you've not got a special interest in the particular faith, then your not letting the forum be used for its intended purpose IMO which is for those folk to discuss things within a group dynamic insofar as the platform supports.

And yea, if the faith is not defined by a subforum category then it would be dependent on the OP, again IMO.

So if your special interest in that topic is to criticize it, then start a thread about criticizing it... but derailing other threads in that area seems like a rule violation to me, given the above reasoning.

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Last edit: 06 Dec 2018 06:15 by Adder.
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06 Dec 2018 08:40 #330182 by JLSpinner
Agreed, lets keep the debunking out of the faith section. This is a space for people to explore spiritual matters. Something, of which, is the focus of a majority of our members.


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06 Dec 2018 14:21 #330203 by Gisteron
I possess no power to "not let the forum be used for its intended purpose". Nothing about what kind of discussion is supposed to occur her is stated either in the FAQ or the description of the subforum. If discussion of substance is unwelcome here, maybe that should be made more explicit somewhere. As it stands, the only rule regulating what content can be posted in what subforum pertains to links only, which, in my case, does not apply, since I did not post any. The FAQ also only lists "Abrahamic, Eastern, Pagan, Science, and Philosophy" as the currently existing SIGs, all of which have dedicated sections as of the time of my writing this post. "Faiths" is not currently itself an SIG.

As I pointed out in my last response, the only reason this is coming up is that Yabu wants to only read some particular types of responses, and not others. He seems to be seeking for that in almost any somewhat interesting thread he makes, though, so I have come to the not entirely unreasonable impression that the reason this thread is posted here rather than elsewhere is not at all related to the nature of the topic itself, especially seeing how the same topic(s) has/have been brought up several times in recent weeks elsewhere on the site.
Yabu is, at any rate, and as much as anyone and everyone else, free to read or to not read any responses posted, and to engage with any or none of them, at his own discretion. My posting here infringes on noone else's nor must I bear any responsibility over whether someone is disturbed by it if I can have no reasonable expectation of the disturbance under the assumption that I'm talking to people I am to respect as equals. I have violated no regulation either by the letter or the spirit, and shown far less disrespect than I received, but if I am unwelcome here in spite of all of that, do feel free to lock me out for now, and consider in future to make access to the SIG subforum opt-in only.

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06 Dec 2018 15:51 #330205 by Rosalyn J
The SIG's encompass:

Faith
Philosophy
Science

The OP does not, unfortunately, direct the conversation with any sort of real preamble, thefore, people are unaware of how to engage with it. They engage with it however they see fit unless provided direction.

The OP contains a two hour video. If anyone has the attention span to consider it, they should at least be allowed to engage with its thesis'

If I believe in faith healing and I post a video of Benny Hinn healing people with no guiding questions, where most of my sources are anecdotal or not peer reviewed, of course it will be debated.

I understand faith healing has not been proven by science, but if I ask, has anyone ever had experiences with faith healing? Healed someone? Been healed themselves? How did it work for you?

Its a little different. It may still be debated. I'm not trying to prove the existance of faith healing. I'm asking for anecdotes.

Its no guarantee. But it might work. /shrug

“Be your genuine self! Allow others to be themselves as well. Do not despair when others do not act the way you would have them act. Rejoice in the fact that they are a part of your Path, but also able to experience their own.”-Senan
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