A hidden history about humanity, dimensions and spirituality

Thank you Silvermane for being a respectful poster and speaking up in a reasonable tone. I do hope my reply seems reasonable. Im an irreverent bastrd and sometimes my words seem hardher than my actual mood. I hope thats not the case here.

Silvermane wrote:
I believe the feedback needs to be constructive to help someone grow...

Yes, exactly. That is what i am doing.

To play Devil's Advocate on what you said, OB1, how do you know that Yabuturtle made up what happened to him in the forest?

Ive lready explained that my powers revealed the truth to me. My connection with the Force. I double confirmed it with a reading of my Tarot Cards. Are you questioning my powers? My connection with the Force? Do you have some proof that the Force didnt show me the truth? Were you physically there with me when i read the Cards?

Lol

The better question is “how do you not know this is a kid teling tales?”

I have a hypotheses: you are somewhat of an intermittent member here. Youre around for awhile amd then life takes you other places and youre gone for awhile. So you miss a substantial amount of what goes on. The Force didnt reveal this part to me btw, this one is just me trying to reason it out on my own. Since youve missed a fair bit of his posting history, the embellishments in his stories arent so obvious to you.

I've spoken with others who have experienced the same phenomenon. None of them had proof to back it up but does that mean they are instantly lying? Do we instantly discredit someone because it does not fit into our reality?

None of those people have anything to do with this because they arent here- we are. Yabaturtle is here, im here. Holding a child accountable to the truth is not going to damage him. If anything NOT doing so could damage him. Neglect the reality of this moment in order to protect some people who arent here and will never even know thos conversation happened?

Im definitely not saying we should go nit picking Yaba’s (or anyone elses) posts to call them liars for every unusual detail. Im saying that Yabaturtle has a history of “white lies” on this forum and in my opinion it is the RESPONSIBILITY of any and all adults who happen to be around, - from time to time, at least - to explain to the young man that the people around him are aware of what hes doing (most of us, anyway), that he loses our respect when he does it, and that theres a MUCH better/more useful/powerful way to carry himself.

Silvermane wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: My psychic powers inform me that you made this up.

You can do better than this. Be coachable!

I agree that people should be more coach-able and willing to accept feedback. However I believe the feedback needs to be constructive to help someone grow and not just tell them they are wrong. The feedback also needs to have provable facts in it as well, especially if you are blatantly telling someone they are wrong.

To play Devil's Advocate on what you said, OB1, how do you know that Yabuturtle made up what happened to him in the forest? Were you physically there when it happened? What proof do you offer, besides your own opinion on what is real and what is not, to substantiate your claim? Yabuturtle told us something he experienced and I've spoken with others who have experienced the same phenomenon. None of them had proof to back it up but does that mean they are instantly lying? Do we instantly discredit someone because it does not fit into our reality? Something to think about.

I think you need to take OB1s quote for what it truly is. A bit of sarcasm that serves the purpose of rejecting the claim that Mr Turtle made. OB1 is not saying it could not have happened, only that he does not believe it happened. In this case OB1 does not have to provide evidence that it did not happen. You asking for evidence from OB1 is actually a logical fallacy called shifting the burden of proof.

In actuality it is Mr Turtles burden to provide proof of his claim and in this sort of case extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which Mr Turtle consistently fails to provide. Instead he just asserts the same things over and over, ignoring not only contradiction but ample evidences that refute his claims. Case in point is his Baigong pipes claim that they were man or alien made constructions. Its actually been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that these are actually natural formations created by the petrification of tree roots. They have been analyzed and found to have tree rings and plant material and natural minerals of the area that seeped into cracks in shale and slowly replaced the plants. Other examples of this sort of process have been found in the US.

That's all they are - plants, and yet Mr Turtle will continue to assert his theories over this undeniable evidence because of his cognitive dissonance and biases. He refuses to accept growth or "be coachable" as OB1 suggests and this is not only sad its dangerous. Individuals like Kobos are not doing him any favors here by patronizing him in this thread and encouraging these delusive ideas. These unfounded theories need to be taken seriously and countered with extreme prejudice because if left to grow their effects on people that are susceptible to their allure can potentially be devastating to political and social discourse and even research and exploration.

Let me say one more thing. if the term troll is offensive then I apologize. I used the term in a technical sense not a derogatory one. It was not meant to disparage anyone, only to describe a behavioral tendency in ignoring counterpoints and failing to engage in a useful or productive manner surrounding these ideas.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Individuals like Kobos are not doing him any favors here by patronizing him in this thread and encouraging these delusive ideas. These unfounded theories need to be taken seriously and countered with extreme prejudice because if left to grow their effects on people that are susceptible to their allure can potentially be devastating to political and social discourse and even research and exploration.

I actually agree with you Kyrin. However, your execution of coaching through extreme prejudice seems lacking in any sort of constructive growth. Thinking about this deeply I try to do as I did above I ask for continued sources of information as well as direct some towards other information that is a bit more viable but is not the exact same, as the theory that I find unsubstantiated. Look at my previous post to the article in popular science. Now that said, Ob1 is correct on the part that, I tend to stay out of these threads because the reality is my attention is better spent on things I can directly effect (I.E. work, school, and personal projects/readings), as interesting as I occasionally find these on a thought exercise level. I don't know whether these are plants, or conversation starters or whatever in repetition. I normally don't come in until someone mentions to me bad or questionable behavior or if i notice it myself when I am otherwise occupied. In the end it doesn't matter, if it is a plant or trolling attempt then ironically anyone in reply to the negative at this point with repeated behavior would have a general understanding of this and simply find something better to do with their time and skills. This in turn would allow the thread to either fall to a false theoretical discussion where the idea of finding or fighting in debate style for a truth is irrelevant or into the land of lost threads which it seems is what you would prefer anyway.

I have decided after writing this all out to selectively see what you typed that involved calling me out by name and edit it down to "Kobos are favors encouraging ideas."

Much love, peace, respect,
Kobos

I Kobos among a couple others have tried to stay on topic. I don't want talk to those who naysay. Not that because I just disagree with them. I am open to a lot of ideas, but also they way they go about it. Rather blunt, arrogant, tactless comments are not something I'm going to listen to.

What they have said isn't going to convince me about a lot of things. Mostly because I have already experienced it. Such as my time skip experience. Gisteron, Kyrin and Obi1 don't offer anything to me as I have nothing to discuss with them. I don't want conflict and talking to them accomplishes nothing. They will not listen and I don't want to talk to them because I already experienced a lot of what they consider mumbo jumbo. If I had an experience with aliens or a bigfoot and someone tells me it's fake, am I really going to listen to that person when I already know? They say I am wasting my time, but I could say the same thing, desperately trying to prove all of my experiences are fake when they are not

I don't want to talk about it or have conflict. I'm just tired of the naysaying and rudeness. I am glad some understand but it just gets old after a while. I just want to talk about the topic from now on.

Kobos wrote: I have decided after writing this all out to selectively see what you typed that involved calling me out by name and edit it down to "Kobos are favors encouraging ideas."

Much love, peace, respect,
Kobos

What I think you are speaking about here is the difference between critique and dialectics. Critique by its design is often times seen as fault finding and harsh in its negative judgements. Dialectic discussion is more of a process of finding the truth of opinion. We use dialectics to discuss philosophy or morality or spirituality. However when you cross over into the hard sciences, as Mr Turtle does so often, it becomes about something more than opinion. There is a truth there based on evidence that cant be denied and yet he continues to do so. When it comes to these sorts of conversations I take more of the first approach and people see it as me attacking them. This is not the case, there is nothing personal to it, its just the nature of the argument.

I was going to say more but I think a PM is better suited.

Yabuturtle wrote: Gisteron, Kyrin and Obi1 don't offer anything to me as I have nothing to discuss with them. I don't want conflict and talking to them accomplishes nothing. They will not listen ...

Excuse me, what? You ignore any and every substantive response even when you do engage in conversation. You just hit the quote button and then blabber on something either wholly irrelevant or just repeat the same points or questions already addressed in the very post you quote. It is YOU, my good sir, who never ever listens, or learns, or brings forth an argument to get someone else to learn, or admits any flaw in reason, or in understanding of your own, either of the things being said here, or the subjects on which you speak. You are always the one to cry persecution, and never the one to actually read what others say or stick with the topic. You will also outright lie about what people said or how they conducted themselves in past threads or present ones, use pretty much every fallacy in the book and always play the victim at the end of it all. You will sooner oppose intellectual discourse than engage in any, bash education before receiving any, and of course shift your faults and burdens onto others who share none of them, rather than carry any of your own. How - frankly - dare you...

My words are harsh, sure, and my criticisms harsher still than that. I can handle the superstitious and the credulous, the dogmatic and the stubborn. I can handle personal attacks, too, because sticks and stones. If my baring my teeth at this insult was intimidating to you, then by all means, I apologize, for that was not my intent at all. I'd much rather we could have kept it all civil anyhow, yet, I can only do so much. One of the things I can do, maybe, is invite back the peace you drove away. But I cannot force it back, alas.

Hi Yabuturtle and everyone else interested,

I have found an online course worth exploring
https://www.coursera.org/learn/understanding-arguments

I'll be enrolling. It starts today.

I thought it worth bringing to attention because I want us all to grow and develop. Sometimes that means examining old thoughts in new ways. Seeing which hold up to scrutiny and which one's don't. Critical thinking (examining an idea fully) is one of the ways this is done

It's a good thing to look into, I'll consider it and thank you.

It's really about the main video I posted and to get people to think. The thing is it isn't really to debate on whether or not this stuff it's true but mostly to get people thinking about it and kind of discuss it with people who already know about it

Such as when I talk about spiritual experiences. The topic is not a debate talking about whether or not it exists, but if other people are interested and perhaps shared similar experiences.

So in other words, you just want your own biases repeated back to you. You are, by your own admission, interested in discussing it with people who already "know about it". You are not interested in discussing any specific points, because I was the first to ask whether you did and you ignored that query, and when you posted the next video for our consideration I asked again and you ignored the query again. You are also - as always - not interested in getting people to think either, because you only care to share with and echo at each other. All you want to hear is "thanks for the share, that's really interesting", and sure enough, you get some of that and just ignore all the rest. But dare someone actually engage with the topic and take you seriously and respond to you with substance, then they are the evildoers, the closed-minded and stubborn ones who'd neither listen nor learn, let alone ever change their mind. Another lie, of course, addressed more often than can be counted at this point...

Silvermane wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:

My psychic powers inform me that you made this up.

You can do better than this. Be coachable!

I agree that people should be more coach-able and willing to accept feedback. However I believe the feedback needs to be constructive to help someone grow and not just tell them they are wrong. The feedback also needs to have provable facts in it as well, especially if you are blatantly telling someone they are wrong.

To play Devil's Advocate on what you said, OB1, how do you know that Yabuturtle made up what happened to him in the forest? Were you physically there when it happened? What proof do you offer, besides your own opinion on what is real and what is not, to substantiate your claim? Yabuturtle told us something he experienced and I've spoken with others who have experienced the same phenomenon. None of them had proof to back it up but does that mean they are instantly lying? Do we instantly discredit someone because it does not fit into our reality? Something to think about.

It's ok. I wouldn't worry about what they say. I never understood that. I feel like we should try respect each other's experiences instead of putting each other down. It doesn't help us grow. Much like how if I am in a Jedi forum and say "lolz you didn't experience the force" It's kind of arrogant really.

On another note, I noticed you are into the norse religion which I find interesting. I know some of those videos like the ones I was posting talk about the mythologies. I have known many religions talk about the different realms. I wanted to ask if perhaps the norse faith touches on the subject of different realms aside from the afterlife.

Interestingly In Celtic religion there is the Otherworld which is debatable and somewhat tricky as celts hardly wrote stuff down. Some had said if you died, you ended up in this world and if you died there you end up back here? Something interesting I had found almost like reincarnation and you are born into another body but in a different world

Yabuturtle wrote:

Silvermane wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:

My psychic powers inform me that you made this up.

You can do better than this. Be coachable!

I agree that people should be more coach-able and willing to accept feedback. However I believe the feedback needs to be constructive to help someone grow and not just tell them they are wrong. The feedback also needs to have provable facts in it as well, especially if you are blatantly telling someone they are wrong.

To play Devil's Advocate on what you said, OB1, how do you know that Yabuturtle made up what happened to him in the forest? Were you physically there when it happened? What proof do you offer, besides your own opinion on what is real and what is not, to substantiate your claim? Yabuturtle told us something he experienced and I've spoken with others who have experienced the same phenomenon. None of them had proof to back it up but does that mean they are instantly lying? Do we instantly discredit someone because it does not fit into our reality? Something to think about.

It's ok. I wouldn't worry about what they say. I never understood that. I feel like we should try respect each other's experiences instead of putting each other down. It doesn't help us grow. Much like how if I am in a Jedi forum and say "lolz you didn't experience the force" It's kind of arrogant really.

On another note, I noticed you are into the norse religion which I find interesting. I know some of those videos like the ones I was posting talk about the mythologies. I have known many religions talk about the different realms. I wanted to ask if perhaps the norse faith touches on the subject of different realms aside from the afterlife.

Interestingly In Celtic religion there is the Otherworld which is debatable and somewhat tricky as celts hardly wrote stuff down. Some had said if you died, you ended up in this world and if you died there you end up back here? Something interesting I had found almost like reincarnation and you are born into another body but in a different world

Yes. The Norse Mythology has 9 worlds in it:
Niflheim
Muspelheim
Asgard
Midgard
Jotunheim
Vanaheim
Alfheim
Svartalfheim
Helheim

Most the Æsir (Norse Gods) live in Asgard while the humans live on Midgard. It doesn’t take much to look up some information on it. If you really want some of the best information I would recommend reading the Poetic Edda. It is a long book and it’s all poems but it has most of the information pertaining to the Norse mythology. I will tell you though, it is not an easy read so if you want simple, you can find sites that have a lot of the information pulled from the Eddas and listed for easier reading. If you are gathering information from the MCU, you are barking up the wrong tree. That’s like trying to find historical facts in reading or watching “Interview with a Vampire”.

As for what the others are saying, they aren’t doing it to be malicious or to be arrogant. There are many people here who like a strong, in-depth discussion and they can get pretty animated when the discussions heat up. They also supply facts and ways to find/check those facts. Believe me, Gisteron used to get my blood boiling at times because of the way he would phrase things and I would feel like he was being arrogant and condescending. I’ve since learned that is not what he is doing but he is very blunt and to the point, which many people, myself included, thought he was just being rude. Like I said previously, you have to be willing to take the feedback that is given. Personal experiences are great but if they are on the far side of most people’s believability spectrum you have to be ready for the hard questions and be able to present facts to back it up. Also, don’t get so easily offended. It is easier said than done sometimes but we are all here to learn and grow. If you aren’t willing to open yourself to the information the are trying to share with you, you are stunting your own growth.

MTFBWY

OB1Shinobi wrote: Thank you Silvermane for being a respectful poster and speaking up in a reasonable tone. I do hope my reply seems reasonable. Im an irreverent bastrd and sometimes my words seem hardher than my actual mood. I hope thats not the case here.

You're welcome and your reply was very reasonable good sir. When we are blunt and to the point our words seem to be more harsh and criticizing but this day and age has bred thin-skinned individuals who struggle with being hit with the truth in such a way. People striving to be Jedi need to learn to accept those “blows” as a learning experience. If I remember correctly, the last time I was here, for one of the longer stints, you and I were friends and had many good conversations as well.

I’ve already explained that my powers revealed the truth to me. My connection with the Force. I double confirmed it with a reading of my Tarot Cards. Are you questioning my powers? My connection with the Force? Do you have some proof that the Force didn’t show me the truth? Were you physically there with me when I read the Cards?

Lol

The better question is “how do you not know this is a kid teling tales?”

When you first mentioned that, I was not sure if you were being sarcastic or honest. The written word is sometimes hard to decipher in such a way, lol. I do not question your abilities or what the Force has shown you, I was merely playing the Devil’s Advocate to offer up questions, not just for Yabuturtle, but in general. The reason being is that my reality, your reality, Yabuturtle’s reality is all different. We believe, think and see things differently so who’s to say that my reality is more true than yours or his? We cannot do that. Now that being said, when you start trying to give facts and say what is true for the whole world but are not backing up those facts with hard evidence and keep denying the provable facts that are being presented, that is being close minded and willfully ignorant and that is not the Jedi way. I’ve spoken with Yabuturtle regarding this and hope he will open himself up more to what is being said to him.

Im definitely not saying we should go nit picking Yaba’s (or anyone elses) posts to call them liars for every unusual detail. Im saying that Yabaturtle has a history of “white lies” on this forum and in my opinion it is the RESPONSIBILITY of any and all adults who happen to be around, - from time to time, at least - to explain to the young man that the people around him are aware of what hes doing (most of us, anyway), that he loses our respect when he does it, and that theres a MUCH better/more useful/powerful way to carry himself.

I agree. It is our duty to separate the fact from the fiction and provide true and honest feedback so people can get correct information. This is a little more difficult when it comes to supernatural personal experiences because there is no way to prove or disprove it. When someone has shown themselves to be on the side of dishonest it does make it harder to trust in their word and their personal experiences. In that case, I would say, to Yabuturtle, to stay away from subjects that are borderline fantasy and stick with conversations that can be backed up with hard evidence. Rebuild that trust and prove yourself by action.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I think you need to take OB1s quote for what it truly is. A bit of sarcasm that serves the purpose of rejecting the claim that Mr Turtle made. OB1 is not saying it could not have happened, only that he does not believe it happened. In this case OB1 does not have to provide evidence that it did not happen. You asking for evidence from OB1 is actually a logical fallacy called shifting the burden of proof.

Not necessarily. What I did was ask OB1 how he knew Turtle to be 100% making things up but also challenge him to think about how he looks at and responds to anyone else who is making the same type of claim. I also believe that OB1’s response was full of worthwhile information and answered exactly what I was looking for. I do appreciate your willingness to back up OB1, though he hardly needs it, and also offer evidence to further prove what OB1 was talking about.

I understand people's responses. I just want people to understand the difference between a debate and a discussion. Especially since this in on the well, Faith part of discussion. i.e. to have faith in something. Something to believe in.

The topic as many forgot, was to discuss about hidden universes. Not debate on whether hidden universes exist or not.

Yabuturtle wrote: I understand people's responses. I just want people to understand the difference between a debate and a discussion. Especially since this in on the well, Faith part of discussion. i.e. to have faith in something. Something to believe in.

The topic as many forgot, was to discuss about hidden universes. Not debate on whether hidden universes exist or not.

Keep in mind that you also get the choice to go down the rabbit holes with people who are deviating from the subject of the discussion. There are ways to politely remind them that their line of questioning or comments is not in line with the subject and ask them to keep it on topic. Please also make sure to clearly state what that topic is and what you want the subject matter to be. If you say "time slips and different dimensions... GO" people are going to take that as an open subject to discuss belief or disbelief and a wide range of other things around it. Be specific in your intentions on how you would like the conversations to go and be willing to direct those conversations. If you follow Alice down the rabbit hole and let someone direct the thread with something off topic, you chose to engage in it and allowed it to happen. Just some food for thought.

Yabuturtle wrote: I understand people's responses. I just want people to understand the difference between a debate and a discussion. Especially since this in on the well, Faith part of discussion. i.e. to have faith in something. Something to believe in.

The topic as many forgot, was to discuss about hidden universes. Not debate on whether hidden universes exist or not.

I don't see any difference whatsoever. And the fact that this is in the faiths subforum despite not being about any faiths is really irrelevant considering how you have the exact same opposition to any and all critical discourse in the discussions subforum as well. I thought you would bring up the place you posted it in eventually, as yet another layer of protection against the horrors of actual discussion. Didn't take long...

Gisteron wrote: I don't see any difference whatsoever. And the fact that this is in the faiths subforum despite not being about any faiths is really irrelevant considering how you have the exact same opposition to any and all critical discourse in the discussions subforum as well. I thought you would bring up the place you posted it in eventually, as yet another layer of protection against the horrors of actual discussion. Didn't take long...

Yab is right IMO, its a 'faith' section in a 'special interest group' section.. if you've not got a special interest in the particular faith, then your not letting the forum be used for its intended purpose IMO which is for those folk to discuss things within a group dynamic insofar as the platform supports.

And yea, if the faith is not defined by a subforum category then it would be dependent on the OP, again IMO.

So if your special interest in that topic is to criticize it, then start a thread about criticizing it... but derailing other threads in that area seems like a rule violation to me, given the above reasoning.

Agreed, lets keep the debunking out of the faith section. This is a space for people to explore spiritual matters. Something, of which, is the focus of a majority of our members.

I possess no power to "not let the forum be used for its intended purpose". Nothing about what kind of discussion is supposed to occur her is stated either in the FAQ or the description of the subforum. If discussion of substance is unwelcome here, maybe that should be made more explicit somewhere. As it stands, the only rule regulating what content can be posted in what subforum pertains to links only, which, in my case, does not apply, since I did not post any. The FAQ also only lists "Abrahamic, Eastern, Pagan, Science, and Philosophy" as the currently existing SIGs, all of which have dedicated sections as of the time of my writing this post. "Faiths" is not currently itself an SIG.

As I pointed out in my last response, the only reason this is coming up is that Yabu wants to only read some particular types of responses, and not others. He seems to be seeking for that in almost any somewhat interesting thread he makes, though, so I have come to the not entirely unreasonable impression that the reason this thread is posted here rather than elsewhere is not at all related to the nature of the topic itself, especially seeing how the same topic(s) has/have been brought up several times in recent weeks elsewhere on the site.
Yabu is, at any rate, and as much as anyone and everyone else, free to read or to not read any responses posted, and to engage with any or none of them, at his own discretion. My posting here infringes on noone else's nor must I bear any responsibility over whether someone is disturbed by it if I can have no reasonable expectation of the disturbance under the assumption that I'm talking to people I am to respect as equals. I have violated no regulation either by the letter or the spirit, and shown far less disrespect than I received, but if I am unwelcome here in spite of all of that, do feel free to lock me out for now, and consider in future to make access to the SIG subforum opt-in only.

The SIG's encompass:

Faith
Philosophy
Science

The OP does not, unfortunately, direct the conversation with any sort of real preamble, thefore, people are unaware of how to engage with it. They engage with it however they see fit unless provided direction.

The OP contains a two hour video. If anyone has the attention span to consider it, they should at least be allowed to engage with its thesis'

If I believe in faith healing and I post a video of Benny Hinn healing people with no guiding questions, where most of my sources are anecdotal or not peer reviewed, of course it will be debated.

I understand faith healing has not been proven by science, but if I ask, has anyone ever had experiences with faith healing? Healed someone? Been healed themselves? How did it work for you?

Its a little different. It may still be debated. I'm not trying to prove the existance of faith healing. I'm asking for anecdotes.

Its no guarantee. But it might work. /shrug