Sith Realist Resources

In my opinion the Sith crave power for it's own sake, external power, power over others and an attempt to not feel helpless, as a defense mechanism, or to feel superior. I'm sure there are other reasons, and it's a reflex, its the other side of a coin and the down to up. They believe they will be rewarded for the force, materially.

I feel Jedi-ism is seeking internal power for it's own sake. for union with the Force. It's linking up with the divine and trying to do the thing that is most harmonious.
Not power over another, or a situation, but power over your own reactions and responses. If you're looking for any spiritual path for material gain, IMO it's all in vain.

I'm not saying one is bad or wrong, just that one seems more driven to control and exalt the ego, whereas the other is trying to dissolve the ego and merge with the divine energies, whatever you may call them.

Someone may ask then why choose one over another? I think the question is really what are you trying to accomplish in general?

There is good and evil in all of us, positive and negative and it's all divine expression that we can ACT like we understand but do not. No one does.
We don't even know what we are actually made of. All we can do is try our best and IMO Sith is not the best we can do, for reasons stated above.
Focusing on either the too negative or too positive can be detrimental even for Jedi.

That being said, l lean towards the light, some lean towards the dark. We all need each other, there IS no up without down, shrugs.

Meh - -my 2 cents.

As a mechanism (working model); having two natures, a spatial frame and a temporal frame to allow connection to it through time as a concept, to employ and to measure results and refine;

Spatial Frame - Teeth;
Charge (Essence) - Peace is a lie, there is only passion. ~ there is always conflict somewhere, its just that when its non-violent it happens to be consensual (in a manner of speaking).

Orbit (Path) - Through passion, I gain strength. ~ conflict is the interaction of competing forces ie resistance, which enables growth.

Spin (Nature) - Through strength, I gain power. ~ literal, strength gives a capability improvement.

Temporal Frame - Tongue;
Charge (Essence) - Through power, I gain victory. ~ victory over, question frame.

Orbit (Path) - Through victory, my chains are broken. ~ victory over, answer frame.

Spin (Nature) - The Force shall set me free. ~ modality of work.

In effect a pure focus on 'Force connection', perhaps relating back to the fiction in that it could be said to be devoid of morals or other conditions. In which case it might serve as a lens to target focused effort and reward purely about Force connection. That would be my guess. A contrasting Jedi view to that might argue that some morals are inherent in the essence of the Force, stuff like what is mentioned in the Jedi Doctrine maybe even taken as far as intrinsic mutualism in which case a selfish centered view of the Force might be a distortion and counterproductive in the longer run, albeit more rewarding potentially in the shorter term.... depending on how close one wants to sit with, and what parts of, the fiction.

This is my current interpretation of the Sith code.

Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.

I take this to be similar to the Buddhist Noble Truth of “There is Suffering/Dissatisfaction”. And as it is in Buddhism, it does not mean life IS suffering, but that dissatisfaction is a fact of life. Thus, no matter how well I learn to “quiet” myself, I will never achieve perfect peace, because it is a fact of life that we all have something that moves us, that makes life worth suffering... this is passion.

Because passion (whatever yearning so strong it is worth suffering for) is so deeply personal, I can only speak as to what I am passionate about. I cannot determine what others should be. I also compare this to Thelema (True Will) as opposed to fleeting desire (which is not worth suffering for, and thus vanishes).

Through Passion, I gain strength.

Because “Passion” (that which we yearn for so strongly that is worth suffering) is inherently connected to our deepest motivators, in the pursuit of Passion I find strength, because nothing springs me more powerfully into action than that which I value most deeply.

I also compare this with one-pointedness: when I focus on which matters most and let that which does not fall to the side, all my energy and vitality is available for the task at hand. It is a process of purification, if letting that which does not matter slide. Passion remains.

Through Strength, I gain Power.

This vital force, purified and entirely directed towards one goal, this strength of “character”, leads to power. This power (the ability to perform an action) is increased by strength of one-pointed thought and action, and the enthusiasm and devotion to it, allows me to effectively communicate my “vision” (the future fruition of passion), which is the basis upon which leadership stands. Thus, power is increased because internally, I increase my ability to get things done, and externally, I increase my ability to leverage others’ effort into getting things done (i.e. scalability). The circle of influence grows, leading others to pursue their passion as well, and participate in mine for however long they share my vision.

Through Power, I gain Victory.

Through the process of discarding the irrelevant, pursuing passion, increasing vital force towards my vision, and widening my circle of influence, I am able to attain the fruition of my vision.

Through Victory, my chains are broken.

Passion is my “True Will”, not some flight of fancy or fleeting desire. Thus, it is a force to be reckoned with. Ignore it, try to quiet it, and it will always continue to come up again and again in different ways. I am chained to it, in a way, though I love it. By seeing my Passion bear its fruit, satisfaction is complete, and thus the chains are broken.

From there, Passion continues to be refined, flow, modified as I continue to become aware of it, and the same process of sacrifice, strength, power and victory continues, always aiming for new heights.

The Force shall set me free.

I’m not big on theism, so in my agnostic interpretation, I liken “Force” with Force of nature. When I follow my Passion, increase Strength, Power, and attain Victory, I become a force to be reckoned with. I become unstoppable (at least until Death meets me). I live life in my own design, thus, I am free.

Note: I find nothing about this Code incompatible with Jediism.

I take this to be similar to the Buddhist Noble Truth of “There is Suffering/Dissatisfaction”. I also compare this to Thelema (True Will) as opposed to fleeting desire (which is not worth suffering for, and thus vanishes).

And these are the four noble truths uttered by the Buddha:

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is this noble eightfold path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.[web 7]

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You might not be aware that the craving for 'what is worth suffering for', is the cause of your suffering.
You seem to accept this, because it seems to allow you to achieve the goal of the craving.
You might not be aware that achieving the goal of the craving will not release you from suffering.
But by promoting the craving to achieve success at all cost, you will likely increase the suffering.
As the success is impermanent, it will only lead to more craving and more suffering.
This path will most certainly not lead you to freedom from suffering, but to it's increase.

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There are plenty of ways to be successful without lighting fires.

Ambert The Traveller wrote: You might not be aware that the craving for 'what is worth suffering for', is the cause of your suffering.
You seem to accept this, because it seems to allow you to achieve the goal of the craving.
You might not be aware that achieving the goal of the craving will not release you from suffering.
But by promoting the craving to achieve success at all cost, you will likely increase the suffering.
As the success is impermanent, it will only lead to more craving and more suffering.
This path will most certainly not lead you to freedom from suffering, but to it's increase.

This is where the Buddha and I part ways. Buddhism stipulates that we can achieve cessation of suffering. I claim that this is only true for those things that do not truly matter to us. Even after deconstructing all the attachments we build by virtue of our upbringing, experiences, and mismanaged thoughts and emotions, there remains a small but ever-present spark, tucked away in the darkest corners of our being, unquenchable.

You are correct in stating that suffering will increase, but life is short, and suffering for what you truly value is actually a beautiful thing. At least it feels that way for me. I am passionate about my family, and long work hours, huge sacrifices, little sleep, and giving them all my attention even when I feel I can no longer keep on going, is something I would not trade for a hundred lifetimes of "peace". I invite this kind of suffering.

Is there something in your life worth your suffering?

Ambert The Traveller wrote: There are plenty of ways to be successful without lighting fires.

I don't understand. Please clarify.

So as I have read through this I have seen some awesome discussion here and I want to ask, why do we as a general group see these as 2 sides of a coin?

Perhaps, if I may, present it as such. Would you consider these 2 philosophical/spiritual codes to be not sides of the coin but the edge? The faces being the conclusions we choose to draw from them?

just some philosophic rambling

Much Love, respect and Peace,
Kobos

Kobos,

Some would argue that they are not related at all. Not even on the same coin. Lol

It's bad form in debate to misrepresent a quote or anything like that to make it falsely support your argument. If the full information or context contradicts your argument, then you should think better of including it.

That could be very true, touche. But isn't it kind of an underlying theme of the ever present force and one's ability to connect to it a major component of both creeds? I would say this at minimum places us in the same cash drawer

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

I see them as both distinct and onto themselves. See it how you like. I only ask if it is working for you to do so. Results do not lie.

Wise words Khaos, for the record I love the discussions and cordiality you carry yourself with. I see them as separate but the same in a way just different mind sets. Tends to work for me. There are times I wonder if others notice where each one bleed into another? Both are forms of self cultivation.

For example I work on my physical conditioning in pursuit of martial arts, this makes me more capable to do more sophisticated moves. Does this not apply to both codes in a way?

I am adding physical power to myself and to be honest it has brought me victory in tournaments (that's not my goal of learning though as the practice brings me peace). Like your interpretation you put above as I progress I do have something to build. I would love to be a teacher of martial arts and so I must cultivate that and build it. Now, here's where I think people see a divide is that I see the over all goal of trying to teach it as some what less self serving (but is it really?) than if I was strictly in it for the competitive aspect or for accolades. Funny, thing is I have never really seen that many real/true Sith realist don't really differ in action that much from Jediist (I have yet to see any Sith Realist trying to establish an empire through murder and betrayal as the mythology is presented). That said I personally have my view of the force and yours is just as valid even should the be contradictory. Genuinely, I believe it does make us stronger particularly when we open out mind to it, how we apply it can be said in ideals through creeds but the reality is always different than the ideals; Just my take on it.


Much Love, Respect and Peace
Kobos

I think you can, given you have the care, and the time, bleed any path into another.

As I said, I am primarily concerned about results.

Meaning cannot be overlooked though.

So for me, the Sith path speaks to me. Words have power, and it has its own distinct culture, flavor, and resonance. Some may like to mix and match such things, and some do not. I do not. It would not give my path more value to do so.

Granted, there is also the matter of immersion. I think were one to spend a significant amount of time, and dedication to just one, or the other, you would see more differences than similarities. There is depth to such things. Take each path and spend at least 10 years on it and each one would be much deeper, and singular.

Its hard to see the depth of each without the given practice and time.

I think that is really where threads like this matter. You can see the depth of the practice, the path, if one is willing, of course.

Manu wrote: This is where the Buddha and I part ways. Buddhism stipulates that we can achieve cessation of suffering. I claim that this is only true for those things that do not truly matter to us.

If that would be so, it would mean that it is not possible to enjoy anything that truly matters without suffering.

Wouldn't it be an extremely sad and depressing existence to continue this line of thought?

Even after deconstructing all the attachments we build by virtue of our upbringing, experiences, and mismanaged thoughts and emotions, there remains a small but ever-present spark, tucked away in the darkest corners of our being, unquenchable.

I could not agree more about a spark remaining after the deconstruction of all the attachments. But it appears to me that this spark is lightful and clear, behind an unknowing cloud of matter, black and white, good and bad, sad and happy, suffering or not.
I understand you are saying that the spark appears to you as still being full of suffering that can not be deconstructed further? If you tried to detach from it, wouldn't there be a remaining clear spark, full of potential for both, suffering and not suffering?

You are correct in stating that suffering will increase, but life is short, and suffering for what you truly value is actually a beautiful thing.

I tend to disagree that suffering is generaIIy a beautiful thing, and that it has to come with, or is the basis of everything that one can truly value. This is IMHO a rather depressed world view.

Reducing or getting rid of suffering does not mean to get rid of what you truly value. Unless you value your own and other peoples suffering as a value of its own.

I am passionate about my family, and long work hours, huge sacrifices, little sleep, and giving them all my attention even when I feel I can no longer keep on going, is something I would not trade for a hundred lifetimes of "peace". I invite this kind of suffering.

Are you sure it is not love you are talking about?

Is there something in your life worth your suffering?

Yes. Much of what helps me to reduce suffering. My family, my sleep, the attention I give to my work and my environment, etc. included. They shouldn't have to suffer or die for me to proof their value. Neither should I. The result here should be a quality of love and peace, not so much of suffering.

It is how you look at it I guess. But we do have a choice to put the cessation and reduction of suffering over suffering and it's increase. And it seems to me to be a natural one.

Ambert The Traveller wrote: There are plenty of ways to be successful without lighting fires.
I don't understand. Please clarify.

I was trying to say that there is no need to use force to be (with) the force. Results can be achieved without attachment to passion and suffering.

Now you can reply: But didn't you use force on your keyboard to tell me about this? Aren't you discussing this passionately? True, so I should better smile and let it go

Ambert The Traveller wrote: I could not agree more about a spark remaining after the deconstruction of all the attachments. But it appears to me that this spark is lightful and clear, behind an unknowing cloud of matter, black and white, good and bad, sad and happy, suffering or not.
I understand you are saying that the spark appears to you as still being full of suffering that can not be deconstructed further? If you tried to detach from it, wouldn't there be a remaining clear spark, full of potential for both, suffering and not suffering?

If you have been able to experience this, then awesome. I have not.

Just to clarify, I do not fetishize suffering. I don't take a lit cigarette against my skin and scream "yessssss". All I am saying is that it is the nature of things, that anything you want (and already do not have), will require sacrifice. Sacrifice is painful. But the rewards are worth it. IF those rewards truly reflect what you want. Otherwise the "high" of achieving anything wears off soon.

I consider love and passion synonyms, if we are talking about proper love, that is. I'm not sure if your relationships involve gazing into that non-dualistic spark of deconstructed what-have-you, but for me, deep relationships have involved working through a great deal of discomfort, pain, and conflict.

Again, I don't want pain for the sake of pain. I simply accept that some pain (not all pain is healthy) is inevitable, and an essential aspect of the nature of getting what I want.

Changing my position to a solid "No ".

If I may join in on the discussion..
What is suffering - what part is painful? Some things we can re learn and some we can -un learn- - during the “unlearning” I’ve found what I used to think was suffering was in a way fear. I understand that some say “suffering is everywhere” but ... in a world where people actually take personal responsibility and truly begin to explore and creat their own path - I found for myself suffering - wasn’t actually suffering. Sacrifice is often frightening than suffering. Sacrifice yields often benifit - this is universally true. Pain in what I think - we are talking about is often brought by the unwillingness to let go? If that’s the right context. What do you think ? There is a very real freedom from self responsibility that can be had that ifnoften never really talked about and passed on. Fear and “pain” often become a obvious “default” that can be -
I don’t wanna at ignored but very easily overlooked after a while. What do y’all think?

Alright, well now I'm feeling like I have something good to bring to the conversation-
Much of my own "suffering " very much has been rooted in fear, the kind that results in catastrophic inaction, or action that conflicts with my own goals, and even actions that prove precipitous.
I struggle with taking that fear and making some good come from it, the first obstacle often being determining the the honest source of it, and whether action is indeed warranted.
"Pragmatism ", that's what I'm thinking of. Rather than fight it, stepping back and examining it.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall set me free.

I have personally found peace in many things. Peace is possible. Some days it’s as easy as - filling a box with things that you find peaceful - personally -
Real ones not some one else’s ideas ... and when you fill it up - when you need em - do it. Peace can come from no where and can come from contentment. Peace can come from strangers and even out of no where. Some people have made the choice or the fear to not choose peace or that they don’t deserve it. Peace is a lie is an opinion relative to the individual. Some folk never find peace. Some never know it’s possible or even how to look for it or even ask about about it. Some don’t believ in it. That’s ok too.

Passion is will to me. My will my focus my drive.
To me-I can not down or diss this code. I can say it’s not for me any longer but that’s because I have in my own opinion moved passed and have added a few more choices to my focus. Compassion is a choice and selfless is another I have added on to my own path over the years. To seek these two out is kind of ... oposing to the sith code after a while. Where I used to be single minded not is more ... more ... inclusive rather than - I don’t eanna day selfish but very ... independent. Yea that’s the right word for me. It was fine in my past but now I’ve chosen to progress in a different direction. A code can help any one willing to apply and even multiple codes are even better. Funny thing about some things is we as humans often have the mindset that only one code or only One way is right yet - there are so many possibilities . Anyhow - my 2 cents thank you for allowing me to join in.chime in

"Pragmatism ", that's what I'm thinking of. Rather than fight it, stepping back and examining it

Exactly.

Then what? After examining it, its still there. Understanding is the first step of many.

Nobody said you have to fight in ignorance, but there is still a fight to be had.

"Once more unto the breach dear friends, once more;"

I'm contributing to a discussion, not providing step by step instructions.
Upon ones own findings do they determine the need for action, but that is dependent and varied by situation, therefore I can't concisely give the answer you seem to think I should, and still be relevant or useful.