Dark side?

DaathMenace wrote: I've often wondered to myself... Why should Jedi (or anyone for that matter) struggle to use their powers for "good"? "Good", after all, is only what the individual defines it as, just like any other concept. "Anger" and "fear" are said to be attributes of the so-called "dark side" of the Force with Jedi emphasising peace, patience, control. But anger can be useful when it drives us to excel, to go beyond our limits until we accomplish what we put our mind to. "Anger" is appropriate at times, just like fear, a vital aspect of evolution for our survival.

Why not turn to the dark side of things? Why not emphasise anger and directing it to one's own will; why not use one's abilities for one's *own* gain, instead of mindlessly catering to the countless needs of the many others who should help themselves anyway?

Even Jedi have to admit that the dark side is a perfectly valid side of the Force- what right do the Jedi, then, have to say that only the aspects of the Force that *they* accept should be practiced? Such an attitude is only evidence of fear- fear of a greater potential that could only be achieved if the Force were embraced as a whole, not constricted and choked, robbed of a vital and wonderful part of its essence by bigotry and narrow-mindedness- even the dark side of it! No... perhaps especially the dark side of it...

There are definitely other ways to motivate oneself beside anger. Anger is useful, yes, but so is excitement, joy, curiosity, etcetera To emphasize anger only just sounds wasteful. Use the whole arsenal not just one piece.

And my saying that is not out of fear, narrow-mindedness, or bigotry. How could you be happy if your fearful or full of hate? Joy doesn't come from blindness. It comes from seeing the whole and accepting it...even the angry and happy parts.

Though I do have to ask, what makes you think people only help each other mindlessly? Most people do it consciously. They do it because not only can they help another person, but they can help themselves at the same time. Not that all help is needed or even beneficial, but what's wrong with returning a shopping cart for an elderly woman, chipping in twenty bucks when a family can't afford their groceries, or planting a tree to beautify not only your yard but the neighborhood as well? You know, you could even do those things motivated by anger. Angry that an old woman has to struggle with her chores that she could once do easily, angry that circumstances sometimes cause people to go without, angry that that world isn't as pristine or pretty as you want it.

DaathMenace wrote: I've often wondered to myself... Why should Jedi (or anyone for that matter) struggle to use their powers for "good"? "Good", after all, is only what the individual defines it as, just like any other concept.

It is probably about connecting to what we each consider to be the Force. For Jedi perhaps its advantageous to that end to conduct themselves in what is socially understood to be 'good'. So then by the same mechanism, anyone advocating that behaviour as part of the Jedi path might be doing so to assist connection to the what they feel is the Force.

DaathMenace wrote: "Anger" and "fear" are said to be attributes of the so-called "dark side" of the Force with Jedi emphasising peace, patience, control. But anger can be useful when it drives us to excel, to go beyond our limits...

Training in and using different techniques would likely generate different results and conduct. Concepts such as anger and fear are concepts which connect to the subconscious mind and are therefore, outside of conscious control (mostly, perhaps). The fight or flight response is part of the same systems which fear and anger are part, and this is where the subconscious mind shortcuts parts of the conscious reasoning mind to achieve advantage in other areas in the hope of survival.

The Jedi instead might choose to train for an intellectual empowerment instead of an emotional empowerment. Plus as others have said, there is risks to playing with your mind, the brain is rather delicate. I guess it depends on what your goals are and how much you want to risk to achieve them which determines which path you take, but I think there are quite valid and logical reasons for their being two paths.

I would advise that the person who began this topic, take some time to visit with some actual Sith, or "darksiders"

LOL!

That vid was very...intoxicating, haha.

Made me giggle, reminded me of the process of emo Anakin.

V-Tog wrote: A general point to be aware of is that most people here do not believe the Force to have light and dark sides. It is ourselves who have light and dark sides, and this is why you will sometimes see people talking about being a Light/Dark Jedi or following the Light/Dark Path - they are focusing on those parts of themselves. But I'm not saying that either view is right or wrong, just that in general people seem to view the Force as being 'neutral', for want of a better word.

No, but there *is* a dark side; I've sensed both the positive and cloudly or "negative" energies. In fact some of you here are already influenced by it; in the short time I opened myself up to the Dark side I've felt my perception increased. You have no idea of the powers of the dark side, and already I'm beginning to perceive the futility and pointlessness of the Jedi.

V-Tog wrote: Let me ask you this - do you believe that we cannot exceed our previous limits and accomplish things unless we are driven by anger?

Anger is powerful- in that it can not only influence our own consciousness, but those around us. I have seen this.

V-Tog wrote: Why is it 'mindless' to want to help others?

Ha! Pitiful concepts such as desiring to "help others" only demonstrate a lack of recognition of the mortality and temporary nature of all things; an emotional piece of drivel, an evolutionary trait that developed as a necessity for some who wanted more than anything to see a "purpose"; a distraction against the true powers of the Force for those who are too weak to accept it for what it is and nothing more.

V-Tog wrote: What about those who cannot help themselves? ... Can you justify to yourself being someone who consistently takes the help offered but does not give back?

You speak of those who will not help themselves as those who can not, and justification as based on your own morality; it is the destiny of the strong to take and to not give back- the history of the world demostrates this; even Jedi must admit that "history is written by the victors", and the way wars are waged only strengthens the point. So you see the dark side is more common and more natural to the human psyche than some would have you believe.

Asopo wrote: If you read my journal, what I point out is that there technically is no light or dark. These are labels, abstractions that humans create within Nature. There are certainly two different ways to exist within life, seeking the higher emotions or seeking understanding and control over base emotions.

As for the Force it is not dark or light, evil or good. It is like saying guns are evil or good. It is the person who that labels, how they use themselves.

True; light and dark are merely labels, descriptions humans place on something beyond names and titles- humans, after all, have an innate urge to define everything. Nevertheless, the dark side of the Force -its intrinsic value- is something I find to be very real. Look at the forests and the rivers and the fields; they had no name or label before; people merely "defined" them for their convenience, so that they could be marked on maps and so that humans could find their way. I believe that such is the Force- but the labels don't take away the inherrant power.

DaathMenace wrote: You have no idea of the powers of the dark side, and already I'm beginning to perceive the futility and pointlessness of the Jedi.

This isn't Star Wars and you aren't Darth Sidious. Plus that's a pretty presumptuous thing to say. How do you know that I don't know of the powers of the dark side? You made that point in reply to me simply alerting you to the fact that the general opinion here disagrees that there is a light and dark side of the Force. I was attempting to be helpful...but then I suppose that you disagree with 'help'.

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: Let me ask you this - do you believe that we cannot exceed our previous limits and accomplish things unless we are driven by anger?

Anger is powerful- in that it can not only influence our own consciousness, but those around us. I have seen this.

It hasn't escaped my notice that you didn't actually attempt to answer the question.

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: Why is it 'mindless' to want to help others?

Ha! Pitiful concepts such as desiring to "help others" only demonstrate a lack of recognition of the mortality and temporary nature of all things; an emotional piece of drivel, an evolutionary trait that developed as a necessity for some who wanted more than anything to see a "purpose"; a distraction against the true powers of the Force for those who are too weak to accept it for what it is and nothing more.

You realise that that argument makes no sense, right? Why would things being mortal and temporary mean that helping people is not a worthwhile aim? You seem to be saying that there is no 'purpose' in life. If that were the case, we have to make up our own purpose...you choose helping yourself, some other here choose helping others. What makes your way so much better? Better for you perhaps...who are you to tell other people how to live their lives?

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: What about those who cannot help themselves? ... Can you justify to yourself being someone who consistently takes the help offered but does not give back?

You speak of those who will not help themselves as those who can not, and justification as based on your own morality; it is the destiny of the strong to take and to not give back- the history of the world demonstrates this; even Jedi must admit that "history is written by the victors", and the way wars are waged only strengthens the point. So you see the dark side is more common and more natural to the human psyche than some would have you believe.

Again, you haven't answered the question. Pretending that I am talking about people who can help themselves doesn't magically change what I had written. I really was asking you about those who can't help themselves. Think...starving children..

The history of the world demonstrates to me that people do take without giving back, but eventually that becomes their downfall. Those who take without giving may perceive themselves to be strong, but they are the ones taking the quick and easy route...so really, are they not the weak ones?

A facet of discernment is recognising futility.

Some will believe that which they have come to believe - if in fact they truly believe what they are saying and not simply "wishing" to believe so - for as long as they believe - or simply "wish to - believe that, and that no valid nor fallacious argumentation is really going to make a difference.

So, for as well written as this may be, it occurs to me that this is a futile, endless debate and above all, just another whimsical match of the game of "black and white" of which we read in Watts.

Of course, that said, I do lean more toward V's view of things, but that is because I am Jedi, however imperfectly.

I've always thought of the light side and dark side as follows.

The Jedi teach "There is no emotion, there is peace."

The Sith (Dark Jedi) teach "Peace is a lie, there is only passion."

The Jedi believe that emotions can blind someone, that if you let your anger or hatred get to you, you fail to see the larger picture. Jedi have always held the value of self sacrifice high, and they are willing to put themselves at risk for others, because their code teaches that emotions aren't meant to rule us, they are merely to guide us. A Jedi can get angry, can feel hate, but their teachings allow themselves to not succumb to these feelings and stand for the greater good.

The Sith, on the other hand, believe that "peace" is a lie. The Sith believe that is their passions that give them strength. Only "Sith" who believe the dark side is only about hate and power are deluded with this concept. True Sith care for only one thing, self preservation. That is what truly separates a Jedi and Sith. A Jedi stands for others, a Sith stands for their own interests, yet not necessarily themselves. Sith believe the power should go to the most powerful, and the weak should not be rewarded for the "weakness". If an individual cannot defend themselves, then they are not worthy of protection. A Sith draws on the Force through their emotions, rather than their serenity. What is the most dangerous emotion? Love. The fake Jedi from the movies do not believe that love should be allowed because it can lead to feelings such as jealously and even zealous behavior.

Read the Star Wars novel "Revan" by Drew Karpyshyn, Revan was considered a "heretic" because he believed that Jedi could love without falling to the dark side. He balanced his inner serenity and emotions on a razor edge, drawing on both the light side and dark side of the Force for power. I believe TOTJO teaches that view of Jediism, to an extent.

Individuals will always differ on what is "light" and what is "dark". I think in today's society, the Sith are simply Egoists, followers of a philosophy closely related to Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy, and Jedi are followers of love, light, and doing what is morally right for others.

This is just my take on it.