Dark side?

DaathMenace wrote:

parallel_element wrote: Daath Menace:

Not that it is really my point to say this, but you seem to be twisting V-Tog's words to your own accord.

The dark side twists all things, corrupts all things, bends all things to its own will- and as I said, I've already seen it here, in some of your members. Perhaps there are some who could become useful assets?

If others can see right through the twisted words then I'm not sure that things are really being bent to its own will...

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: I was commenting on something you said that was pretty much an exact quote from the films. Many of my posts here demonstrate that on the whole I actually like to dissociate my Jedi faith from Star Wars.

Then perhaps before you respond you should consider more carefully?

Well if anyone else seriously thought that I was being an obsessive Star Wars fan I would be very surprised. And I can assure you that I have been giving a lot of time and thought to my answers, as I do with everything I write at TOTJO.

Perhaps it is you who should consider more carefully?

DaathMenace wrote: So many excuses... such an effort to justify one's own response. But you know as well as I that one either answers or does not, there is no "attempt". You cannot change this, only give more excuses in a futile attempt to avoid the inevitable.

As I said before, yes, every attempt at an answer can be seen as an answer, but if it does not relate enough to the original question to be made sense of then there might as well not have been an answer at all.

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: Feel free to quote me where I said either of those things.

I am satisfied in the knowledge that each individual knows their own actions. Just as you know yours, Jedi.

Yes - I know that I didn't say what you claimed I did :laugh:

As I said before to persistently claim something doesn't magically make it true...

*There is ice cream in my freezer...there is ice cream in my freezer...there is ice cream in my freezer...*



I really wanted that to work...

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: One only needs forgiving when they have done something wrong. So I respectfully decline your forgiveness.

Define "wrong".

Gosh, well that needs a whole new thread of its own really. A very brief answer would be that you need forgiveness when you either caused or intended harm. But even that is quite flexible, because of the subjective nature of harm and whether or not it has been caused.

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: So you're basically saying that starving children don't need our help because they are lucky enough to be in a character-building situation? (Of course, starving children was just one example of the many different people who need help, but I'm sticking with the example here...)

And if I am?

Err...okay...if that's what you want to pretend that you think, you carry on :laugh:

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: We'll have to agree to disagree here.

I disagree. The strong take, the weak must give. If the strong do not take or reclaim, then they only prove their own fear- and fear is a weakness when you let it control you.

I'm not sure whether you're disagreeing with what I said about takers and givers, or disagreeing that we'll have to agree to disagree. Because if it's the latter...well unfortunately you will have to agree to disagree, because you can't force me to change my mind.


I am now going to withdraw from this particular back-and-forth exchange. I don't really think that we're achieving anything here and I don't want to disrupt an interesting discussion about the nature of the dark side. But if you want to PM me about anything, feel free

Imagine a circular river, with no end or beginning, that sustains itself and flows with vitality. I see us all as being immersed in this river. Most people tend to go along with river's flow sometimes and others try to resist it. To me a Jedi is someone who never resists the flow of the river and allows themselves to flow along with the river, as one.

Hmm....perhaps your thinking to small.

Imagine an ocean, imagine us immersed in that ocean. An ocean has many flows, eddies, and even tides. Some visible, some beneath the surface.

Simply because is not going along popular channels does not mean they are not going with a flow. Perhaps its simply one you don't see.

Resonance with different frequencies, preffered preference, like something as simple as someone choosing coke over pespsi is very common.

Or music, or certain sports, martial arts, etc,etc.

Choice is a wonderful thing. Whether its to do something, or not do something.

Just because you like pepsi more, has no relevance to someone who likes coke.

We occasionally get guests like that...they come in and pick someone to single out and challenge...a test of wills I suppose...or a test of faith....it's through such conflicts (tests & challenges) that we learn, grow, and either find ourselves or find ourselves lacking....

I think Khaos conclusions are correct; however it is not what my example was attempting to explain.

The river is the lowest level of consciousness - it is the Force. To be of the river is to be completelyat one with the Force, to have no sense of self- to be everything. As in Alan Watts "The Book", he explains how we are born and brought up with the belief we are a "thing" and have an independent ego. It is in a sense too late for us to regress and fully understand that we are the Force and the entirety of the universe is us. So we are not truly the river, we instead are egos flowing with the river. The next level of consciousness, the Self. My point was that "Dark Side" methods encourage one's ego to grow and be more separate from all else. Thus your level of consciousness increases until you no longer are immersed in the river, but are on the land; where you control your self-created ego and delude yourself into believing you are distinct from Nature.

At the fundamental we are all the Force, my example was an attempt to show that superficially we can encourage egoism and distance ourself mentally from the Force, resulting in a person who ignores the very Nature they were born from. To reject Nature and the Force is to reject yourself and will destroy you - the Dark Side encourages this.

The example would hold with an ocean also because in order to define an ocean there must be land.

I have to disagree, with my experience so far of the "Dark Side."

As Khaos pointed out, there are various currents within the ocean, some we see and some we cannot.

But that being said, those of the "dark side" experience a different side of life versus that of those who are "light side." I've actually been more alienated from nature with some light teachings than those of dark side. We can all squabble away what it means to be light or dark, but it all has different sects depending upon the individual, i.e. like Baptist, Protestant, Catholicism, etc. There are different degrees, different sects, all with various labels.

There is a focus on the "self" but with it, is a focus on our base natures. Our base natures are very much in touch with "Nature." Our higher nature is more...revolved around "unity" and such abstractions like peace. It's like, left brain, right brain differences for example. Logic versus intuition. Each sect stresses something, but there are some common "elements" that differentiate between "dark side" and "light side." I could try and explain, but human nature is constantly sliding between these, crossing over, it meets like the yin yang symbol, flowing.

Dark side versus light side are just different currents in the ocean. I liked the word Khaos used earlier, resonance. The dark or the light will for an individual with feel almost..."harmonious" with it's teachings toward one person versus another. The teachings of Buddha will resonant with someone who recognizes themselves within the teachings and find value.

They are "two sides" who are just different. These two sides simply just experience the world in a different, one is considered "orthodox" and the other is considered a degree amount of words like dangerous, feral, evil, strange, abnormal, etc. What is orthodox is not the only way to live. After the fall of the Roman Empire and Christianity took over as the main religion, the unorthodox was being pagan. Pagans experienced a different way of life from Christianity. Even with Islam, people who are Muslim experience a very different life from those who are Christian, Pagan, Satanists, etc.

It's simply, different.

This connotation of dark side is not synonymous with different religions/denominations. The context of the dark side as spoke of by Daath is just evil. Evil is bad. You can dress it up how you like but if you violently impose your will on others for your own gain you are evil. (Or if you prefer, really really bad) Everything is not relativistic, there are concrete examples of 'good' and 'bad' and while we all agree some things are subjective, we also agree some things are not. Show me a person who thinks rape or the Shoah are okay and I will explain to them with my boot why I think they're wrong.

This is not about understanding someone elses point of view, its just being too concerned with the idea that people should be able to do what they want without consequences. What Daath is talking about is childish and not caring for others. Its the sign of a sick mind or an immature jerk.

Understanding the force as a duality of life and death, suffering and peace; that makes sense. In that context dark is a poor choice of words. That's like saying the tails side of a coin is the 'dark' or 'bad' side. This is the only problem I see with taking the language of Star Wars as part of the Jedi religious concept. Star Wars is very clearly good or evil with zero middle ground. While its clear to me there is good and evil, there is a lot more middle ground then either one.

Every thought and every action has a consequence ... some positive some negative... it's all relative to your perspective...in islam(extremists) it's viewed as justice for a husband to kill his wife for adultery...but this is not how other religions view it.... different cultures have different views of right and wrong...

And when I reference darkness I mean the depths...where killing or harming is done for the joy of it...not where people whine about how hard they have it when they don't get their way....few have the strength to return from the depths...most simply sink deeper until there is no return....

I bet if you asked the women getting stoned they would have some fairly keen insight into the manner. Honor killings are a topic that spans the board both inside and outside of Islam. I'm against it, as are most Muslims. Radical Islam stems from selective reading of the Qur'an and often times external situations. (Poverty, Invasion, Western Culture, ect) I suggest reading a book called "Terror in the Name of God" if you're curious, its excellent. (I think the author was Dr. Jessica Stern) Also the Qur'an, its pretty outstanding too.

Of course everyone has a perspective, but you've got to realize there is a group perspective as well. If everyone just did what they wanted based on what they determined was the moral conception of the week we would still be killing each other with clubs I guess the best way I can say it is your reality does not determine either group reality or true reality. (Although true reality is a whole different can of worms)

That doesn't make your opinion invalid. Quite the opposite, a healthy society is one in which people can come together to construct the world around them in a healthy way. I believe the force acts itself out in this way more then any other in human culture. Its through this honest dialogue we learn and grow. But in order to do that some serious examination of both the self and others is needed.

The examples I used were pretty extreme but the point stands. Does anybody here honestly think that either rape or the Shoah are good? Would any of you partake in that? If someone raped you or a loved one, or commited genocide on your people would you simply shrug and say, "It's okay. His desire was valid."

*Comments removed*

First of all, he calls himself a Darth, and selects "Daath" as the first part of his username to bypass the TotJO policy against using Star Wars universe titles in our usernames. Interestingly, Da'ath is actually a word in Hebrew that means Knowledge, and refers to a pseudo-Sephiric abyss or black hole on the Tree of Life, which abyss serves as a veil between the brilliant white sphere of Kether, i.e. Godhead, and the lower parts of the Tree.

Menace indeed.

Da'ath lies along the 13th Path representing universal Subconsciousness, which is basically the Substance of the Force, and has keywords such as "alternation" and "reflection". The 13th Path is also called the Uniting Intelligence. There is some genuine insight to be had there into the nature of the Light Side-Dark Side dynamic as well, when considering the reconciliation between reflection and unity.

He's supposedly never heard of Darth Sidious? Right. I'm gathering that he's not a fan of Episodes 1-3. Well, ok, I can't say that I blame him, there.

Secondly, let the allusions to Star Wars quotes begin:

DaathMenace wrote: I find your lack of references other than Star Wars disturbing.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." -Darth Vader

DaathMenace wrote: One either answers a question or does not answer. There is no "attempt".

"Do, or do not. There is no try" -Yoda

DaathMenace wrote: Nevertheless I will spell it out, though you may find other adherrants of the dark side less forgiving than I.

"The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." -Darth Vader

DaathMenace wrote: You have no idea of the powers of the dark side

"You don't know the power of the Dark Side!" -Darth Vader

DaathMenace wrote: Perhaps there are some who could become useful assets?

Darth Vader: "If he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally."
Emperor Palpatine: "Yes. Yes… He would be a great asset."

DaathMenace wrote: and fear is a weakness when you let it control you.

"You have controlled your fear. Now, release your anger." -Darth Vader

DaathMenace wrote: I'm sending my apprentice, Darth Menace… He will find your missing pants.

Oh, wait… no, that one was all me.

*Comment removed*

The “dark” side, the “light” side; they are all a part of the same whole. Can one draw a line and show me the point where the two are separate?

The real question I see is, what are your views of the now?

Imagine there are two circles. One, you are in the center of and it has no definable borders. It stretches out in all directions…. Infinite. The other is clearly defined; you are not in it but rather one with all.

One can chose to be the center of focus… stretching out in an attempt to influence all. Or, one can accept and become a part of it all.