Dark side?

I tend to think that Sith believe in the power of emotions in that we should allow them to rule us because they can give us strength. This translates into evil in the Star Wars movies, but what I see in real life is that Sith who believe emotions are a source of power do not always have evil intentions. They are simply taking a different path to find what they perceive to be good. Daath Menace made a valid point that good is only what we perceive it to be. However, there is also a socially acceptable idea of what is good. Real life Sith, for the most part, do not use emotions to work toward evil. They find their emotions as a source of strength in their quest to bring good to the world.

Jedi, on the other hand, recognize that emotions can give you strength, but they generally choose to act on intellect. They acknowledge their emotions and allow those emotions, but they do not use their emotions for strength.

Of course, both of these assessments are only my own observations and are extremely generalized. Every person is going to be different, practice this differently, and see these practices differently.

Control is the name of the game, kids. Just as your code says "there is no chaos, there is harmony", the dark side stresses control, and not acting upon mindless impulsion.

V-Tog wrote: This isn't Star Wars and you aren't Darth Sidious.

Never heard of him. I find your lack of references other than Star Wars disturbing.

V-Tog wrote: It hasn't escaped my notice that you didn't actually attempt to answer the question.

One either answers a question or does not answer. There is no "attempt". An answer for your question was provided- whether you choose to achknowledge the answer and dwell on what is being said, or turn a blind eye, is your own choice alone.

V-Tog wrote: You realise that that argument makes no sense, right? Why would things being mortal and temporary mean that helping people is not a worthwhile aim? You seem to be saying that there is no 'purpose' in life. If that were the case, we have to make up our own purpose...you choose helping yourself, some other here choose helping others. What makes your way so much better? Better for you perhaps...who are you to tell other people how to live their lives?

You use this argument against points which support the dark side, yet when it comes to your concept of "helping others" you turn it all around, so that you end up concluding "helping others = purpose. Helping self = futile because life is temporary". Don't you see the contradiction there?

V-Tog wrote: Again, you haven't answered the question.

And again, you see an answer that you find unsatisfactory as somehow invisible as you turn it a blind eye. Nevertheless I will spell it out, though you may find other adherrants of the dark side less forgiving than I.

V-Tog wrote: Pretending that I am talking about people who can help themselves doesn't magically change what I had written. I really was asking you about those who can't help themselves. Think...starving children..

Ah, but even many starving children develop wit, character, and ambition.

V-Tog wrote: The history of the world demonstrates to me that people do take without giving back, but eventually that becomes their downfall. Those who take without giving may perceive themselves to be strong, but they are the ones taking the quick and easy route...so really, are they not the weak ones?

The downfall of the strong comes from ill-thought out decision rather than taking from those who do not deserve- whether it is quick and easy and long and difficult is irrelevant; it's what is conveniant for the taker. One takes, another loses. If the one who loses is strong, let him reclaim himself and prove it- or he can stagger along the long, slow path of the weak.

Daath Menace:

Not that it is really my point to say this, but you seem to be twisting V-Tog's words to your own accord.

When you say "helping others = purpose, helping yourself = futile because life is temporary", I don't believe that is what being a Jedi is about at all. Being a Jedi means willingly sacrificing yourself for the good of others because the Force is greater than the self, and Jedi wish to do what they can for others.

Being a "dark side" user, you must understand in the concept of self preservation no? You say starving children CAN develop wit, ambition, and character. So cannot they develop hopelessness, despair and sorrow. It is a Jedi's job to wish to end those feelings, and bring hope where depression is.

I read in your journal you believe in the power of words. Then listen to this, you are nothing. The "strong" and "powerful" version you think of yourself is nothing compared to the Force. Dark side users believe in Egoism. But really, in 100 years, what are you? A Jedi's deeds will remain with the generations of people he/she may have helped or taught. But what is a Sith? A Sith is simply a power hungry individual who caused fear and panic and is nothing but a mere legend.

Oh by the way... never heard of Darth Sidious? Then you obviously have no idea what a "true" Sith is, because he is the utter definition of one. Oh, and also in your journal, you have claimed the title of "Darth". I know from my studies that the title is not something one can willingly give themselves, but for all intent purposes, congratulations on the title. Besides, what is a title no one else accepts? Since you have wrongly claimed it, I'm sure no true Sith would accept your title. Besides that, a true Sith does not care about titles, why would they care unless they were so concerned with how others look at them? Almost cries out as a sense of desperation for attention.

You are nothing but words, and words are soon forgotten. As is everything, eventually.

I read in your journal you believe in the power of words. Then listen to this, you are nothing. The "strong" and "powerful" version you think of yourself is nothing compared to the Force. Dark side users believe in Egoism. But really, in 100 years, what are you? A Jedi's deeds will remain with the generations of people he/she may have helped or taught. But what is a Sith? A Sith is simply a power hungry individual who caused fear and panic and is nothing but a mere legend.

Words can inspire deeeds that last for generations, they help and teach. Also yes, in a 100 years well all be dead, but so what? Lol, I aint worried about tomorrow im having too much fun today,and today, im here.

That said, fear, and panic can last for generations as well..

Still, while I agree Sith are power hungry( I should know), but living in the real world, fear and panic arent always the best way to go about getting it. This isnt a philosophical distinction, but one of common sense.

If history is written by the strong people who were willing to take it as you so inaccurately pointed out then how do you explain Israel becoming a nation after Hitler rage quit life? How do you explain the amount of charity American citizens give out of pocket every year if the strong only take? How do you explain the peace corps? How do you explain the abolishment of slavery? Don't make me actually break out my world history books and look up every example, that'll take hours.

I would debate that nature does in fact have both a light and a dark side. Without both nature isn't complete, but dark doesn't mean evil or violent. Its simply the absence of light. To understand the whole of nature you have to understand the night, the dark ocean floor, the deep blackness of space.

In ourselves we need to be able to realize the figurative Ying dark to our Yang light. Negative emotions are part of the human experience, how we chose to deal with them details whether or not we are light or dark Jedi in my mind. Anger, treating others poorly, violence, close mindedness, and so on are parts and paths to the dark side. We have all seen it and dealt with it. By choosing to embrace or not to embrace negativity we define ourselves as 'light' often times. I think the role we play is more one of balance, although by admission I, and I'm sure most of us, would prefer to live in a 'perfect world' then a simply okay one.

I feel when a lot of people use the word anger they don't mean it in a strictly violent or hurtful context. There is righteous anger when you see an innocent being pushed around and there is hateful anger when we embrace mindless aggression and act out of character. I don't feel the idea of anger is as cut and dry as, "I got mad so I did xyz." It goes deeper.

More to the point for application; we act in accordance with how we want the world to be in the hopes that one day it'll be so.

The idea of being mean to people or cruel for your own edification is clearly against the tenants of this faith. On a more personal not I would like to say its childish as well. Honestly, advocating treating others badly tells me you have a very sheltered view of what the world is like. Experience can be a harsh teacher, but in the interest of changing your view I hope she pays you a visit Daath. You get some idiotic sense of superiority from starving children? Really? This whole, thing reeks of a pull yourself up by your bootstraps moment. I see it coming.

One last point. The idea that words are useless/pointless/just labels is all too common and completely inaccurate. Don't believe me? Tell me all about it without using words.

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: This isn't Star Wars and you aren't Darth Sidious.

Never heard of him. I find your lack of references other than Star Wars disturbing.

I was commenting on something you said that was pretty much an exact quote from the films. Many of my posts here demonstrate that on the whole I actually like to dissociate my Jedi faith from Star Wars.

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: It hasn't escaped my notice that you didn't actually attempt to answer the question.

One either answers a question or does not answer. There is no "attempt". An answer for your question was provided- whether you choose to achknowledge the answer and dwell on what is being said, or turn a blind eye, is your own choice alone.

You answered an imaginary question that was different to the question that I asked. According to what you are saying, I could ask "How many years old are you?" and you could answer "Purple". Everyone is, of course, free to answer however they like, but if the answer so indirectly addresses the question that it cannot be made sense of, what is the point?

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: You realise that that argument makes no sense, right? Why would things being mortal and temporary mean that helping people is not a worthwhile aim? You seem to be saying that there is no 'purpose' in life. If that were the case, we have to make up our own purpose...you choose helping yourself, some other here choose helping others. What makes your way so much better? Better for you perhaps...who are you to tell other people how to live their lives?

You use this argument against points which support the dark side, yet when it comes to your concept of "helping others" you turn it all around, so that you end up concluding "helping others = purpose. Helping self = futile because life is temporary". Don't you see the contradiction there?

Feel free to quote me where I said either of those things. For SOME people, helping others becomes their self-appointed purpose. I certainly didn't say that helping the self was futile - in fact, I acknowledged that it may well be what YOU need your purpose to be.

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: Again, you haven't answered the question.

And again, you see an answer that you find unsatisfactory as somehow invisible as you turn it a blind eye. Nevertheless I will spell it out, though you may find other adherrants of the dark side less forgiving than I.

If I come across dark side followers who are not prepared to have a polite and sensible conversation, then I'm not going to be that concerned about what they have to say or whether or not they are dismissive of what I have to say.

One only needs forgiving when they have done something wrong. So I respectfully decline your forgiveness.

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: Pretending that I am talking about people who can help themselves doesn't magically change what I had written. I really was asking you about those who can't help themselves. Think...starving children..

Ah, but even many starving children develop wit, character, and ambition.

So you're basically saying that starving children don't need our help because they are lucky enough to be in a character-building situation? (Of course, starving children was just one example of the many different people who need help, but I'm sticking with the example here...)

DaathMenace wrote:

V-Tog wrote: The history of the world demonstrates to me that people do take without giving back, but eventually that becomes their downfall. Those who take without giving may perceive themselves to be strong, but they are the ones taking the quick and easy route...so really, are they not the weak ones?

The downfall of the strong comes from ill-thought out decision rather than taking from those who do not deserve- whether it is quick and easy and long and difficult is irrelevant; it's what is convenient for the taker. One takes, another loses. If the one who loses is strong, let him reclaim himself and prove it- or he can stagger along the long, slow path of the weak.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Those who abuse their power to persistently take from others are taking the easy route, whereas those who have had their generosity abused in this way yet refuse to give up are taking the hard route. Therefore, in this analogy givers are strong, takers are weak.

I just gotta say this. I know, from experience, identifying oneself as a Jedi often brings laughs and such, and this is our burden to bear. I can't imagine trying to come across as a Sith lord would bring any better result. As much as I'd like to be Darth Revan, conquering the galaxy and having my way with Bastila every night, it's not gonna happen. You want to take all that you can by force? I don't know, abuse the welfare system.

parallel_element wrote: Daath Menace:

Not that it is really my point to say this, but you seem to be twisting V-Tog's words to your own accord.

The dark side twists all things, corrupts all things, bends all things to its own will- and as I said, I've already seen it here, in some of your members. Perhaps there are some who could become useful assets?

parallel_element wrote: I read in your journal you believe in the power of words. Then listen to this, you are nothing. The "strong" and "powerful" version you think of yourself is nothing compared to the Force.

Which is why the Force must be made use of. If you do not realise even that, then perhaps your master has taught you poorly?

parallel_element wrote: You are nothing but words, and words are soon forgotten. As is everything, eventually.

No: words are never forgotten. They live on inside of us, carried throughout the various generations and cultures of humanity, a living, breathing, energy. Look at the hieroglyphs- has even five thousand years broken them? Your post demonstrates that you do not understand the true power of words. But you know; it is said that adherrants of the dark side especially can appreciate their power. You could learn... if it were taught you.

V-Tog wrote: I was commenting on something you said that was pretty much an exact quote from the films. Many of my posts here demonstrate that on the whole I actually like to dissociate my Jedi faith from Star Wars.

Then perhaps before you respond you should consider more carefully?

V-Tog wrote: You answered an imaginary question that was different to the question that I asked. According to what you are saying, I could ask "How many years old are you?" and you could answer "Purple". Everyone is, of course, free to answer however they like, but if the answer so indirectly addresses the question that it cannot be made sense of, what is the point?

So many excuses... such an effort to justify one's own response. But you know as well as I that one either answers or does not, there is no "attempt". You cannot change this, only give more excuses in a futile attempt to avoid the inevitable.

V-Tog wrote: Feel free to quote me where I said either of those things.

I am satisfied in the knowledge that each individual knows their own actions. Just as you know yours, Jedi.

V-Tog wrote:
If I come across dark side followers who are not prepared to have a polite and sensible conversation, then I'm not going to be that concerned about what they have to say or whether or not they are dismissive of what I have to say.

There are some who always dwell on what to be, what to become... and never keep their mind on the "here and now": what they're actually doing. Some do this without even realising, until they know only how to speak, but do not know what it is they speak about.

V-Tog wrote: One only needs forgiving when they have done something wrong. So I respectfully decline your forgiveness.

Define "wrong".

V-Tog wrote: So you're basically saying that starving children don't need our help because they are lucky enough to be in a character-building situation? (Of course, starving children was just one example of the many different people who need help, but I'm sticking with the example here...)

And if I am?

V-Tog wrote: We'll have to agree to disagree here.

I disagree. The strong take, the weak must give. If the strong do not take or reclaim, then they only prove their own fear- and fear is a weakness when you let it control you.

I too believe that no Dark Side or Light Side exist, but I do think that the teachings of the "Dark Side" go against the will of the Force. I think best in examples, so here is the best I can come up with.

Imagine a circular river, with no end or beginning, that sustains itself and flows with vitality. I see us all as being immersed in this river. Most people tend to go along with river's flow sometimes and others try to resist it. To me a Jedi is someone who never resists the flow of the river and allows themselves to flow along with the river, as one. DaathMenace speaks of using his anger to achieve his goals. Sometimes we get angry, sometimes we get happy - these are just the eddies of the river that we pass with. However to encourage anger is quite different. DaathMenace speaks of fighting the river's flow and with a violent action (forcing anger) he powers on and creates a trench that extends away from the river - a trench towards his goal.At first, DaathMenace is right, you feel the rushing power of the water force you through the newly created trench and the water powers you along to where you want to go. Great, but eventually the water in the trench, the water around DaathMenace will become still as it is no longer connected to the flow of the river. Slowly, it will ebb
back from the trench back to the river, but this ebb will not be strong enough to carry DaathMenace back.He will be left in a dry trench-bed, seperate from river and unable to achieve anything.

I guess what I am trying to say is that these "Dark Side" methods may work in the short-term, but they make you think only of the self and so lock your ego further away from the All, the Force. It makes you forget you are of the Force and so
you reject the Force within you. This will leave you empty, seperate from the all.