An Unpopular Conviction

hmmm...i say people should have to take an i.q. test and a common sense test, as well has have psychological evaluations done before being allowed to have children...of course that's mostly because i'm tired of seeing so many news reports of idiots leaving their kids in the car with the windows up on a hot day and no a/c...or duct taping their mouths shut...or expecting society to raise their kid for them...the list could go on...there are simply some people that should not be allowed to have children because they are not smart enough or capable enough to properly care for themselves let alone another person...

I don't think its a factor of IQ but a lack of sufficient compassion and care. I've met brilliant people who would not make good parents and people who are in the retardation levels of IQ that are wonderful parents. Its about compassion and a willingness to adapt yourself to the needs of the child. I don't think its a matter of intellect or even common sense.

IQ test or not, nothing beats good parenting, and a good school system

RyuJin wrote: hmmm...i say people should have to take an i.q. test and a common sense test, as well has have psychological evaluations done before being allowed to have children...of course that's mostly because i'm tired of seeing so many news reports of idiots leaving their kids in the car with the windows up on a hot day and no a/c...or duct taping their mouths shut...or expecting society to raise their kid for them...the list could go on...there are simply some people that should not be allowed to have children because they are not smart enough or capable enough to properly care for themselves let alone another person...

I can agree with that, but again, my point is that all that misery can be avoided by simply not reproducing. It's not hard to avoid, with all the stuff we've got today.

But then again, I knew this post wouldn't be successful in changing anyone's minds. Don't get me wrong, I stand behind my belief 100% and believe that the antinatalist position is morally superior, but I can understand why it is has remained obscure and sort of a fringe philosophy. Immoral or not, reproduction is a trend that has been with us well before we evolved into modern humans, and something that seems so inherent to what we are will take ages to defeat, if it is ever defeated.

I guess that's one of the benefits of being a Jedi in exile, I'm just myself. When I become one with the Force, I'll know I didn't leave anyone behind to suffer, or didn't leave a bad legacy. I'll know that I did my best to work toward my own enlightenment as well as the best interests of other people.

Star Forge wrote: When I become one with the Force, I'll know I didn't leave anyone behind to suffer, or didn't leave a bad legacy. I'll know that I did my best to work toward my own enlightenment as well as the best interests of other people.

Sounds like you fear leaving someone behind to suffer, or fear leaving behind a bad legacy. I'd be wondering if these fear's werent limiting the work towards your enlightenment.

Adder wrote:

Star Forge wrote: When I become one with the Force, I'll know I didn't leave anyone behind to suffer, or didn't leave a bad legacy. I'll know that I did my best to work toward my own enlightenment as well as the best interests of other people.

Sounds like you fear leaving someone behind to suffer, of fear leaving behind a bad legacy. I'd be wondering if these fear's werent limiting the work towards your enlightenment.

Not fear. If you have a gun in your hand, do you fear shooting yourself in the head? Not unless you do it completely intentionally. Likewise, I know what to do and what not to do, so it's not fear, more caution and resolve.

Star Forge wrote: Not fear. If you have a gun in your hand, do you fear shooting yourself in the head? Not unless you do it completely intentionally. Likewise, I know what to do and what not to do, so it's not fear, more caution and resolve.

A gun in your hand is within your control. If you shoot yourself it would still be a type of suffering, but you are seemingly talking about belief in anti-natalism because the suffering by another you seek to avoid is being caused outside of your control. The gun is just not a relevant comparison as far as I can tell.

So you say its not fear, but the anti-natalilst will not be at peace knowing they might have caused suffering by creating life - that I think we agree on? Wouldn't that belief be based on emotions derived from the anti-natalists personal experience of suffering?

So it sounds like a type of fear to me, perhaps anxiety is a better word; as a type of fear, or an emotion which includes fear. It sounds like you do not want to have the anxiety or fear that something you create might suffer, even though its at the expense of everything else.

Adder wrote:

Star Forge wrote: Not fear. If you have a gun in your hand, do you fear shooting yourself in the head? Not unless you do it completely intentionally. Likewise, I know what to do and what not to do, so it's not fear, more caution and resolve.

A gun in your hand is within your control. If you shoot yourself it would still be a type of suffering, but you are seemingly talking about belief in anti-natalism because the suffering by another you seek to avoid is being caused outside of your control. The gun is just not a relevant comparison as far as I can tell.

So you say its not fear, but the anti-natalilst will not be at peace knowing they might have caused suffering by creating life - that I think we agree on? Wouldn't that belief be based on emotions derived from the anti-natalists personal experience of suffering?

So it sounds like a type of fear to me, perhaps anxiety is a better word; as a type of fear, or an emotion which includes fear. It sounds like you do not want to have the anxiety or fear that something you create might suffer, even though its at the expense of everything else.

Well, from the anti-natalist premise, reproducing would be guaranteeing suffering upon another, as well as yourself and others, most likely. There's no fear or risk involved, it's a clear decision: reproduce or don't. I mean, you decide to reproduce. Even if it's "unintentional," it most likely happened by not making a serious effort to prevent it. We don't sit back and say, "I don't want a kid because he/she might suffer." It's rather, "If you reproduce, your kid WILL assuredly suffer, and it will also increase your suffering and that of others."

I'm new here, and this is obviously a thread that has garnered much attention, created some... 'tense' vibes, and provoked a lot of people. SO, if posting here is something I shouldn't be doing... but I can't help myself.

Through this entire thing I find myself laughing my Nordic ass off. I mean really. It's funny to me; I'm really enjoying reading through all these posts. I think part of it is that I've seen topics like this arise elsewhere on the net, only to be met with intellectually stimulating comments such as "WtF u talkn bt MAN?! You lk sm kind fag r smthn cuz thAT shiTS like F*ckd up ngga". It's certainly refreshing to see this discussed with such compassion, logic and even temperament (on the part of most), and it really makes me glad that I am a member of this Order.

I personally disagree with what Star Forge believes, but I also strongly disagree with those in the world who advocate having 19+ children. Both to me are unnatural viewpoints that go against the very spirit of this existence and the nature of the Force. But that's inconsequential, I don't think this is a matter where my personal beliefs really hold any sway - obviously Star Forge is very firm in his belief and unwilling to even consider the possibility that he is wrong (as am I, I'm merely pointing it out, not stating that it is wrong. that'd be a bit hypocritical of me, considering I'm unwilling to accept my beliefs are wrong, right? lol)

I wish that Star Forge had not become quite so defensive at times, though considering I had the benefit of reading this topic as a linear story in the past-tense, and wasn't caught up in the moment, I can see how he might have felt a little attacked. Though obviously if you hold convictions that are so unorthodox as his and desire to change people's minds to see things from your perspective, you have set a nearly unattainable goal for yourself, and disappointment is the only thing that can follow.

The perspective is a very unique one though to be sure... I've never before encountered its like, and I'm quite glad I did. To be honest, the only thing that would cause me to truly shrivel at the idea of having a child is if he or she were to grow up with the same view as Star Forge , but that's just personal opinion on my part.

I just can't help but find this whole thing really funny though, and I guess I don't even really know why. It's just that while reading this topic I found myself laughing involuntarily and I think that any instinctive reaction that strong (I'm still chuckling) deserves to be recognized. I also think that if you can't take a step back from you own beliefs that you hold so incredibly dear that you would die for them... yadda yadda yadda... that you're view probably isn't a valid one. If it doesn't contain self-humor, then in my mind a belief is wrong. Let's see how many people jump in an pick that apart (no really, please don't, I feel bad enough as it is resurrecting such a heated thread).

Anyway, I felt the need to share my love of this thread for the joy it's given me over the last hour. I'd like to firmly thank Star Forge for sharing his deeply and unpopular viewpoint, that took some major cojones and I really admire that. So-even though I don't share your views sir-I salute you for sticking to you guns. Likewise for everyone else on here who maintained a clear and professional attitude and expressed their views with clarity and fervor-you to deserve praise for staying true to your path. Also, thanks to Sapadu, reading your responses were I think, partly what helped bring this into a humorous, detached light. I'm really appreciating your posting style, it's unique and invigorating.

Anyway, I think I just realized why I'm posting this! lol.
For anyone who reads this in the future, I'd really like the last words to be ones, not of argument and distaste (I realize that not everyone will find this thread as humorous as I), but of pleasure and humor. I want there to be a moment of peace and simple joy in a thread that is this... Dark.

Life is suffering, suffering is good. Life is joy, joy is good. Life is life, life is good.

Here's to restoring the balance of light and dark. Hopefully future readers of this thread who find themselves becoming angry or indignant are given a pause by this post and take a look at the humor within.

Peace and Love
Live long and prosper
and May the Force be with you, always.


:lol:

(I'm soooooo going to be chastised by someone for posting here, I just know it.) :whistle: :pinch: :side: :lol:

Hal_littleeye wrote: (I'm soooooo going to be chastised by someone for posting here, I just know it.) :whistle: :pinch: :side: :lol:

I CAN NOT believe...you should be ashamed...I mean really...this is nuts...can you even THINK? I mean WT---Seriously, your intelligence.......

Nah, just kidding. I enjoyed your post.

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I'm disappointed Star Forge never responded to Master Jon's question: what's wrong with suffering?

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I can salute someone that sticks to their views to a point. But when he's talking about annihilation (that is if everyone followed his point-of-view) I don't salute it; I just think it's absurd. But I'm glad he posted his thoughts though. It was very interesting reading this thread while it was happening.

MTFBWY,
LTK