An Unpopular Conviction

I too am glad this came up. I've had a lot to think about today. To answer the unscientific poll, I am very happy to be alive. Grateful too. I don't believe that a soul is conscripted into life. As for the people who intentionally have children, there is religious context for it in several religions, most notably Christianity. I'm not saying you need to believe in it since I don't, but dealing with them harshly for what, to them, is a religious belief is not right in my opinion. That's just as true when someone judges someone who chooses not to have children.

I, too, am glad this topic came up.

I had no idea something called antinatalism even existed; the concepts seemed so foreign to me, but at the end I can understand a little bit of Star Forge's perspective on this charged topic (and this thread sure got a lot of viewings, haha).

I disagree with the premise and conclusions of Star Forge, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it was an interesting thread to read through.

May The Force Be With Us All

(and if I may steal something similar from Jedi Knight Akkarin)

And May Our Beliefs And ACTIONS Harm None On The Way.

-LTK

Oh yeah...I am definitely glad to be here and to be alive and to know that I am here.

Star Forge wrote: To answer Br. John's question, I maintain my belief that it is an injustice that we are conscripted into life.

I personally am very happy with my life

I put it to you that is an injustice for my parents to NOT have me as their child and to experience the world...

If I'm displeased then I can simply choose to leave it

But you also talk about not imposing your views, well you are already forcing a choice onto another person by saying 'You will never have the opportunity to decide for yourself'


Thief!

I am honestly very happy and very thankful to have this life that I have. I have had a wonderful time here so far, certainly far more happiness and satisfaction than suffering. I can tell you any suffering I have had has only made the pleasures of this life that much better.

My fiance and I planned to have our daughter. Since she has been born six years ago, she has been very happy learning and experiencing a great deal of beautiful things in this world. Becoming a father changed my entire way of life. I wrote a bit about this in my journal, but to sum it up, the responsibility I gained from becoming a father granted me a massive deal of growth and happiness, that which far out-weighs any suffering, and that which I never would have had if I had never became a father.

Now, I can understand maybe the idea of somebody bringing a child into this world when they have no way to take care of the child and have no intentions on making the child happy, because of their own down-falls. THAT definitely would be a life of suffering. There are certain people in this world that I just find myself feeling should not breed at all for the good of everyone. In fact I'm sure we all know people like that.

Where the conflict in my eyes comes into this topic is the exemption of conditionals. Applying the ideal unconditionally to all people no matter what, trying to speak for all people about how life is all suffering and the happiness stuff is just "meh sure whatever" is what throws off the entire topic and infuriates people.

There's obviously a reason why this is an unpopular conviction.... a pretty good reason... probably a reason that could be... I don't know... maybe taken into consideration. Just sayin'....

I took the time to read every post carefully just to be sure of my feelings on this matter. It has been quite a ride. So here is what I "feel"...

"LIFE WILL OUT"! In other words, no matter what we do or how we as humans destroy our gift of life, life will find a way to exist. Maybe not on this planet but somehow, somewhere, the universal consciousness of the Force will find a way to prove life.

So I guess it does not matter how I feel or Star Forge feels or anyone for that matter. The Force will find a way! And it doesn't have to be human to be a consciousness.

This topic alone proves the duality of everything. LIFE proves DEATH as GOOD proves BAD as LIGHT proves DARK. One cannot exist, as we humans know it, without the other.

Excellent topic even though at some points of it I was disturbed by the hypothesis.

Jestor wrote: I feel you are ignoring me...

I'm so sad... lol...

Ok, not really....

Earlier, you said,

The unborn are conscripted into a life of suffering (yes, for the millionth time, I know life contains some fun do) because of the whim of one or both of their parents, or for some other person's gain.

Why do you say that? "A life full of suffering"? How do you know its life is going to be full of sorrow?

My life is full of joy, happiness, (yes, it has had some sadness and misery... Things I was unhappy with...).... But overall, its been a great life!! Way more ups than downs...

I think, if I had more downs than ups, I would see the world as full of suffering too... idk, cause I don't see it that way....

I am still 100% antinatalist and will remain so as long as I live, but I can at least tolerate reproduction outside of natalism (intentionally having kids). Radical natalists like Gothard and the Duggars need to be dealt with harshly.

lol... Your judgement that they need dealt with makes me laugh... You judge them, saying they need dealt with for their belief that having children is Gods will...

Yet, condemn us for perceived attacks and judgements.... Cause it questions values we... how'd you phrase it?

Did I question something so fundamental, so basic, that it's too far out to explore for most of you?

You are certainly entitled to this opinion.... As we are ours....

Not ignoring you at all, just had a lot to respond to. I think in responding to your post, it will answer everyone's questions.

First of all, life does contain suffering, no matter if it is a lot or hardly any. One of the key points behind antinatalism is that what pleasure that may or may not be contained in life does not void, numerically counterbalance, or otherwise make up for the bad.

As for the Duggars and such, well, even if I COULD view radical blatant natalism objectively, I would never for one second be tolderant and objective toward sexism, which is what their fundamentalist religion promotes. As in, women are relegated to the kictchen, the bedroom, and behind the scenes at church. If for whatever reason some masochist woman wants several kids, that's her choice. But, it must be HER choice. In the case of the Duggars, it's fundamental, patriarchial, brainwashing filth. Women in such religious environments are brainwashed victims with the illusion of free will.

Star Forge wrote: One of the key points behind antinatalism is that what pleasure that may or may not be contained in life does not void, numerically counterbalance, or otherwise make up for the bad.

You say that but several people (including myself) have already said that this view just doesn't hold when you actually ask others.

So why do you continue to say that bad never outweighs good when people have been repeatedly saying that it isn't true?

Akkarin wrote:

Star Forge wrote: One of the key points behind antinatalism is that what pleasure that may or may not be contained in life does not void, numerically counterbalance, or otherwise make up for the bad.

You say that but several people (including myself) have already said that this view just doesn't hold when you actually ask others.

So why do you continue to say that bad never outweighs good when people have been repeatedly saying that it isn't true?

It's not a matter of anything outweighing anything. It's that the good does not nullify the bad. I mean, if I got a bottle of Dr. Pepper that is 1/4 urine, the Dr. Pepper's not gonna "outweigh" the urine. Think of it in those terms.

Star Forge wrote: First of all, life does contain suffering, no matter if it is a lot or hardly any. One of the key points behind antinatalism is that what pleasure that may or may not be contained in life does not void, numerically counterbalance, or otherwise make up for the bad.

Hmm.. Interesting. So if I have read this correctly, to follow antinatalism is to feel that there is no amount of good elements to life that makes any suffering worth it? Would this mean that it dismisses all significance in what others find beautiful, positive, and uplifting?