An Unpopular Conviction

Here is where Passion is ruling instead of respecting one anothers thoughts and Ideas... I'm not saying it is wrong or right, we just hit a topic that is extremely sensetive... Knight Akkarin said it well... Lets let this simmer down and come back to it when clearer heads can openly converse without getting upset...

We don't walk in each others shoes or experience the same in life as others and we all see and feel things differently...

Lets take a TIMEOUT....

MTFBWYAAF

I'm quite happy to have been

To answer Br. John's question I am neither happy nor sad about being born but whilst concious I try to make the most of my time.

I believe that it is the choice of the individual (if able to make it) as to whether or not they reproduce. Ultimately I believe that it makes no difference either way as we are all a part of The Force no matter what 'face' we possess. To me birth and death are simply terms which we use to try to make sense of it all but in so doing we enforce our sense of 'I' and our image of separateness from the rest of the universe.

Life is full of beauty and ugliness; one cannot exist without the other. We sense what we sense and experience what we experience. We are in control of our own journey as long as we possess this physical form, after that I'm not too sure but I bet It'll be a good ride!

'I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.'
- Voltaire

Since I am alive, I try to make the best of it. I try to make this life worth living. I try not to be a waist of space and oxygen. Would I have preferred not to be born, well I'll tell you when I'm dead!... Or maybe not!

This was an extremely interesting thread to read and the OP had such new ideas I've never heard before. While as a mother, I dislike the thought of not having my children and also dislike the thought of them having such thoughts later in life, I have to admit I see the point that is being made and can see from the OP's eyes on this one. I have different beliefs but sincerely appreciate hearing these new ideas. I can imagine having such a conviction would be a challenge. I can also say that my intentions on having children were to increase joy and happiness for more, not as selfish or bad intended ones.

I cannot imagine life without family. This family included.

As always, may the Force be with us.

No pain no gain.

Pain is weakness leaving the body.

Thinking about something is giving it attention, and that can be considered a form of empowering it, so it might be best to think of even suffering as a, or part of a, positive process for healing. The mind can be powerful enough to even turn some pain into pleasure! I'm very happy to be alive!!

I had a conversation tonight-a very short one- that can sum up my views as well as answer Br. John's question. I met two friends of mine at the mall, two friends who had not only never met each other, but are complete binary opposites. Friend 1 is a former co-worker of mine who is 20 and has a daughter who is 2 or 3. He's well over six feet tall, very muscular and imposing, and a decent looking guy who is a smooth talker, a chain smoker, and somewhat of a philosopher despite having no formal education after high school. Friend 2 is one I met in a class who makes straight A's, is from somewhere in Yankee land (I'm in Alabama), more civil, a religious Southern Baptist (although he has as much fun as the rest of us...), and from a very conservative Air Force family. Friend two mentioned something about having a kid one day. I mentioned that I would never intentionally have a kid, and he asserted that he wanted to intentionally become a father one day. Friend 1, who is already a father and is quite responsible, told 2 that he had no idea what he was talking about. 2 once again asserted that he wanted to be a father. I commented that I can understand becoming a parent as a side-effect of sex, but could never understand someone who intentionally made a strong effort to become a parent. 1 stated that I was right on target.

Later, 1 and I are alone, and we talk more about his situation as a parent. He states that he loves his daughter and is glad she is here, but he never wanted to be a parent, and parenthood is not something one should make a strong effort to enter into. Again, his daughter is the most important thing in the world to him, and he is very responsible, but he stated that intentionally impregnating your wife/becoming pregnant is complete foolishness. I guess he's a bit of an antinatalist like me, although he probably has never heard the term.

I realized a differentiation that I had always made but have never brought attention to in this post. There is a difference between reproduction and natalism. It's a blurry line, but it's there. I believe that even sex within a relationship or marriage should be done responsibly, and that even people who are not against the idea of reproduction should understand the consequences and implications of reproducing. However, I also see reproduction as a sort of side-effect of sex. It happens to a lot of people who didn't intend for it to happen, and they make the best of it. While my friend never wanted to become a father, he wouldn't give up his daughter as she is already born.

I am still 100% antinatalist and will remain so as long as I live, but I can at least tolerate reproduction outside of natalism (intentionally having kids). Radical natalists like Gothard and the Duggars need to be dealt with harshly.

To answer Br. John's question, I maintain my belief that it is an injustice that we are conscripted into life. However, it happened that I am here. My friend would rather not have been a father, but he wouldn't give up his daughter for anything. The fact is, is that I am here and it's no use to think about what could have been. So I guess I am somewhat glad to exist, even though it is utterly illogical.

I feel you are ignoring me...

I'm so sad... lol...

Ok, not really....

Earlier, you said,

The unborn are conscripted into a life of suffering (yes, for the millionth time, I know life contains some fun do) because of the whim of one or both of their parents, or for some other person's gain.

Why do you say that? "A life full of suffering"? How do you know its life is going to be full of sorrow?

My life is full of joy, happiness, (yes, it has had some sadness and misery... Things I was unhappy with...).... But overall, its been a great life!! Way more ups than downs...

I think, if I had more downs than ups, I would see the world as full of suffering too... idk, cause I don't see it that way....

I am still 100% antinatalist and will remain so as long as I live, but I can at least tolerate reproduction outside of natalism (intentionally having kids). Radical natalists like Gothard and the Duggars need to be dealt with harshly.

lol... Your judgement that they need dealt with makes me laugh... You judge them, saying they need dealt with for their belief that having children is Gods will...

Yet, condemn us for perceived attacks and judgements.... Cause it questions values we... how'd you phrase it?

Did I question something so fundamental, so basic, that it's too far out to explore for most of you?

You are certainly entitled to this opinion.... As we are ours....

I'm glad this topic came up. Thank you Star Forge.

Here's just a few of the reasons it's valuable to me.

I was not aware of the Antinatalism movement / philosophy. Rxample: http://antinatalismpamphlet.blogspot.com/ . Now I am.

I'm not in favor of the voluntary extinction of the human race but I am in favor of children being wanted and cared for if they're born. It's valuable to consider why one should not have children. It's not wise to ignore one side of a question. Actually it can be disastrous.

Star Forge says that even if he had the power to enforce his moral / belief on everyone he would not do it. He's entitled to this belief and it's his right to advocate it. I don't think this is in dispute at all. If only others were showed the same courtesy. Here is an example that both infuriated and frightened me. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/21/nun-excummunicated/

The bishops position was that even though the patients doctors said her chances of dying without the abortion (of the 11 week old fetus) were virtually 100%, she should have had the choice of abortion. http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-nun-excommunicated-after-abortion-to-save-mother-decision-93880384.html "According to the medical directives at the hospital, abortion is not permitted under any circumstances - even to save the life of the mother." (This mother has a husband and four children.)

How many of you know that Catholic hospitals can and do impose their religious beliefs on patients? In many parts of The US the closest hospital is a Catholic hospital and the next nearest one may be hours away. I've given two links since there is plenty of information in these two articles for you to google up plenty more. Why are we allowing this legal exception? What if the hospital were owned by Jehovah Witnesses and did not allow blood transfusions? Would we stand for that?

(Note, I was born and raised Catholic. I no longer agree with several major policies of the 'management' of The Roman Catholic Church. This is no slander against Catholics, many of whom share my disagreements with The Powers That Be.)

These legal hospital religious exceptions should be another topic but I'm pointing out here how important the distinction is from a person having a sincere moral belief for themselves and advocating it and the person who imposes and wishes to impose it on others who do not share it.

This topic is going to bring up several other great topics for discussion.

There's more but I wanted to say thank you to Star Forge and encourage him and anyone else not to hold back on a topic because they're concerned it's too controversial. Usually those are the best ones.

Thank you! I promise never to hold back on the TOTJO forum!..... :evil: