An Unpopular Conviction

I feel the need to remind everyone that as Jedi: We have no emotion, we have peace, and also: We have no passion, we have serenity. This seems on the edge of moving from a discussion to an argument and that is not what this forum is for.

That being said, I don't think life can be forced on anyone. Also, you say it is wrong to bring a being into a horrible world, what if that being is the one who will change it into a less horrible world for everyone else?

Star Forge wrote: Once again, I'm not saying that there are not good points to life. All of you, listen just this once: I BELIEVE THAT IT IS WRONG TO FORCE LIFE UPON THE UNBORN, TO CONSCRIPT THEM INTO MISERY, REGARDLESS OF WHAT ELSE IS EXPERIENCED IN LIFE. How much suffering or how much pleasure life contains is irrelenant. The point is, is that it is suffering.

How do you know it is forced? Lets start there then...

Star Forge wrote:

Luthien wrote: The world is full of beauty, if you choose to see it. The way you see life says much on the way you see yourself. Life is full of suffering, yes, but does that negate the good stuff?

Once again, I'm not saying that there are not good points to life. All of you, listen just this once: I BELIEVE THAT IT IS WRONG TO FORCE LIFE UPON THE UNBORN, TO CONSCRIPT THEM INTO MISERY, REGARDLESS OF WHAT ELSE IS EXPERIENCED IN LIFE. How much suffering or how much pleasure life contains is irrelenant. The point is, is that it is suffering.

As a human being, how confident are you to know for sure that things are the way they seem? That life truly is "forced" upon anybody? Do you know this for a fact, without doubt to such a point that you can prove this and thus show all possible justification of your point of view?

Talking in a Buddhist perspective, the point is to lift yourself out of the suffering. The point is to not stand for the state of suffering and to find and irradiciate the source of your own suffering. The newly born have not yet known suffering, to them, suffering is the cold world outside the mothers womb until there is warmth again in a blanket and the beat in the mother's chest. The act of birth, and the continuance of life does not equal suffering.

Star Forge wrote: This is one of my greatest moral convictions which has brought me endless ridicule, criticism, and controversy. However, it would be morally wrong of me to obscure and withhold truth for my own convenience, comfort, or even safety.

So here we go. I believe that reproduction is morally wrong. It brings misery on the living and the unborn. Since the human race began, it has been a tool to oppress women. It forces life upon the unborn, and life is merely varying degrees of misery. I was born and had to deal with fear, pain, anger, death, and other negative things my whole life, all of it forced upon me, and so have all of you. Just because an injustice falls upon every single person does not make it any less of an injustice.

Before any of you say that I am trying to form a nihilistic death cult, think about what you are saying. Do you think that a soul's existence begins with biological life, or anything material for that matter? That's what I thought.

So there you have it. Reproduction is painful, dangerous, and creates misery for everyone, but most importantly, it is unnecessary and 100% COMPLETELY AVOIDABLE. I mean, abstinence, condoms, birth control, whatever your method may be, it is completely preventable.

Additionally, while I am not advocating hastening of the deaths of already living beings, I have to share one of the experiences that brought me to this conclusion and sums up why I believe as I do. A few years back, a friend of mine that is significantly older than me and that I have always respected suggested that I read the Watchmen comics. He lent be the big volume an I read away. Near the climax, the Soviet Union is preparing to launch all of its nukes at the USA, who would in turn fire back. One of the protagonists (I can't remember her name) asks Dr. Manhattan to intervene, He says that, perhaps there is a chance he could stop *some* of the Soviet nukes, but is the instant annihilation of mankind that bad? No more striving, pain, war, suffering-it would just all end (it turned out that the nuclear war actually was avoided...). To me, reproduction is just forcing life (and therefore suffering) upon another person, not to mention the complications that it creates for the already living.

Please, everyone, consider my views on this matter.

This 'argument' is based on your feelings, perceptions and experiences about human life, reproduction and birth. You've arbitrarily assigned values to human life, reproduction and being born. You also state an assumption about when the soul begins. We've not even established what the soul is.

This is not a logical argument at all. You've only made a statement about how you feel.

Star Forge wrote: I BELIEVE THAT IT IS WRONG TO FORCE LIFE UPON THE UNBORN, TO CONSCRIPT THEM INTO MISERY, REGARDLESS OF WHAT ELSE IS EXPERIENCED IN LIFE. How much suffering or how much pleasure life contains is irrelenant. The point is, is that it is suffering.

I don't know if this is what you intended, but caps can look like shouting and some people can take offence of it (just something to be aware of in future)

But my question to you is this:

Does your refusal to allow someone to experience love and happiness not as equally harsh or evil?

Actually, it does make me wonder. In the assumption of a "soul" and "being born into the world", do you believe it possible for a soul to choose to be born here at all? And how? And if not, then what do you believe therein, to correction?

Zeke wrote: I feel the need to remind everyone that as Jedi: We have no emotion, we have peace, and also: We have no passion, we have serenity. This seems on the edge of moving from a discussion to an argument and that is not what this forum is for.

That being said, I don't think life can be forced on anyone. Also, you say it is wrong to bring a being into a horrible world, what if that being is the one who will change it into a less horrible world for everyone else?

You're heart's in the right place. That version of the code begs to be misunderstood.

The better version of the code is "Emotion yet Peace, Passion yet Serenity ...". A Jedi does have emotions. It's how we handle them. There's nothing wrong with a good argument /debate. It crosses the line when it devolves from debate into name calling, bullying or beating the poo out of someone.

It's not based on my experience anymore than it is based on everyone else's experience. These is suffering in life and you cannot deny it, because you have all experienced it. Seeing as a couple of you have been attacking me from a Buddhist angle, I must remind you that one of the key tenets of Buddhism is that life is suffering. All the happiness and rainbows and glitter farts you can invoke do not make it right. This pic sums it up http://antinatalismpamphlet.blogspot.com/

Star Forge wrote: It's not based on my experience anymore than it is based on everyone else's experience. These is suffering in life and you cannot deny it, because you have all experienced it. Seeing as a couple of you have been attacking me from a Buddhist angle, I must remind you that one of the key tenets of Buddhism is that life is suffering. All the happiness and rainbows and glitter farts you can invoke do not make it right. This pic sums it up http://antinatalismpamphlet.blogspot.com/

Hmm... I don't recall anybody attacking you here. We asked you specific questions to get a clearer picture of your view of this. I'm sorry if you feel you must be defensive, as we are open to hear all views and are not here to discriminate against you for your own. This is a matter of obtaining more understanding, not of trying to convince you that any of us are right.

However, you have not answered many questions that have been asked here. And Br. John, I have to say, is right. This is a point of view based on your feelings. In your opening post, and throughout this forum, you have only expressed the attitude that your belief and view is the one and all truth that all the rest of us must adopt.