An Unpopular Conviction

Star Forge wrote: You know, in a way, I am sorry I even shared this. It's just, I cannot understand how people think. Human reproduction, to me, is physically disgusting, sociologically damaging, morally repugnant, and totally avoidable. People explaining how great it is to me are just as outlandish as would be someone explaining how fulfulling it is to eat feces.

Does anybody here watch The Big Bang Theory? Doesn't he sound just like Sheldon Cooper? Not really on topic, just gave me a good chuckle and couldn't help but point it out, lol.

Your belief is not new. There have been people who believed similar things for various reasons throughout history.

For reasons which should be obvious, most of the original people who believed these things are not around anymore.

At any rate, what it really comes down to is whether "suffering" is that bad a thing in the first place. It gives us something to challenge us. Overcoming the challenge is what life is about.

The line of thought you have led yourself down is similar to the line of thought of people who contemplate suicide... and its realization is, in essence, the slow suicide of the species.

*Warning, everything posted below is on the assumption that you are a Christian based on the first quote I am about to post. If you are not, then most of this won't really pertain to you.*

Star Forge wrote: I mean, is the idea of a Christian, fairly conservative, heterosexual, American man being against reproduction so horribly alien?

Actually, yes. Genesis Chapter 1, Verse 27-28a:
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it;"

Yes, I think that human reproduction is immoral, as it is not our place to create a sentient being which has no will or say in whether or not it will exist.

Once again, back to the verse above. The very first chapter of the Bible, the very first page, the final day of creation, and he commanded man and woman to reproduce. And if it is morally wrong to force life onto the earth, why did God do it? And why did he tell us to do it? And why did he give us the power to create life if it's not our place?

Well, the Genesis part is all figurative, and only retarded creationists take that stuff literally.

So i'm retarded? You have really stooped down to name calling for someone who does not agree with you? I find it insulting and do not appreciate it. Not exactly the Jedi way. Especially for someone who believes that everyone has a right to believe what they want.

I think our reproductive habits are not something he is too concerned about, or even takes cognizance of, even though many Christians consider sexual behavior and the prohibitions thereof to be key tenets of Christianity.

..........uh, have you really read the Bible? lol Sex is all over the Bible. And let's not forget that God bestowed a child unto Mary and her cousin. Although, I can see where you will go with this one. Mary was a virgin, and her cousin was supposed to be too old and most likely her and her husband did not have sex. But still...God forcefully procreated man in this instance, without even asking them "hey, is it ok if I knock you up?" He forced the pain and suffering of child birth upon them. He created John to prepare the way for Jesus, and Jesus to prepare the way to Heaven. God really didn't have to do any of this. It was simply His way of proving His love for us.

Now all of these responses i've given have been in thinking that you are a Christian, a conclusion I came to with the first quote of this post. I know this is a topic that will always lead in circles, and is probably a thread that needs to just die away quickly as it leads to nowhere, lol, but I just really felt that I should post my feelings on all of this as well.

I should also point out that while some of these things have probably already been discussed, I'll admit that I was writing as I was reading through the thread (I did skip a few pages) and just didn't want to delete anything because it was what I was thinking at the time and I like for my thoughts to be shared.

And I would like to end on one final note:

I will again remind you all that just because life contains some enjoyment does not make it desirable.

Uh...I disagree. For example, if I were to die, and I were given the chance to live again from the very beginning, knowing all the pain and suffering I would go through in life, I would gladly choose that option. Not because I don't want to blink out of existence or not because I don't want to go to Heaven (a bit of an odd choice to make, lol), but because there are so many joys in life that I find myself wanting again, even knowing that pain and suffering come with them. I do NOT enjoy the pain and suffering AT ALL, but it's a part of life for every living being. But I find the joys of life very pleasurable, and would not mind the pain and suffering, as those come and go throughout life. Perhaps it's because I don't dwell on them? I learn from them and move on.

Learn_To_Know wrote:

Hal_littleeye wrote: (I'm soooooo going to be chastised by someone for posting here, I just know it.) :whistle: :pinch: :side: :lol:

I CAN NOT believe...you should be ashamed...I mean really...this is nuts...can you even THINK? I mean WT---Seriously, your intelligence.......

Nah, just kidding. I enjoyed your post.

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I'm disappointed Star Forge never responded to Master Jon's question: what's wrong with suffering?

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I can salute someone that sticks to their views to a point. But when he's talking about annihilation (that is if everyone followed his point-of-view) I don't salute it; I just think it's absurd. But I'm glad he posted his thoughts though. It was very interesting reading this thread while it was happening.

MTFBWY,
LTK

I didn't mean that I saluted his beliefs, I think they're... well nuts. But I do respect anyone who can... erm... stick to their beliefs blindly? :pinch: It was brave of him to post something that controversial is all. And interesting, I'm really glad that I know of the antinatalist movement, it's good to know about things like that... like you said-interesting.

Anyway, glad you liked my post. I was just worried that someone would be unhappy that a resurrected such an old and heated thread. I'm new here lol, don't want to step on any toes!

This horse has been beaten to death, I think. Just one more kick for posterity, though.

I am reminded of a quote from the immortal Captian James T Kirk:

"Damn it Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're the things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. [to Sybok] I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!"

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this was from Star Trek V. I know it's one of the worst in the series, but the quote is relevant. Here's why:
In this scene Sybok, Spock's brother, is attempting to turn Spock, Kirk, and Doctor McCoy to his way of thinking by forcing them to face moments in their past which have caused them great suffering.

The point is that without suffering, without struggle, the very thing that tempers us as human beings... we are as nothing. It makes us strong, makes us who we are. Suffering and pain mold and shape our lives every bit as much as love and kindness. You say "what right have we to force suffering on others?" I say what right have we to deny it?

Huh, your feelings, like other pointed out already, aren't new whatsoever. Your beliefs perfecty reflect Gnosticism, an ancient religion that had trouble surviving post christianity as it was seen as heresy and popular opinion won over in the books. The gospel of Timothy in the new testament however is seen as the gnostic gospel and speaks of how women shouldn't bare children; you may find juxtaposed beliefs in it in comparison to your own. Similarly, Heaven's Gate, though they may not have realized it, were modern gnostics. You aren't alone, though I can't relate fully, and I hope you feel better knowing there is at least an ideology for how you feel and possible hidden modernistic groups you can associate with spiritually.