An Unpopular Conviction

Proteus wrote:

Star Forge wrote: It's not based on my experience anymore than it is based on everyone else's experience. These is suffering in life and you cannot deny it, because you have all experienced it. Seeing as a couple of you have been attacking me from a Buddhist angle, I must remind you that one of the key tenets of Buddhism is that life is suffering. All the happiness and rainbows and glitter farts you can invoke do not make it right. This pic sums it up http://antinatalismpamphlet.blogspot.com/

Hmm... I don't recall anybody attacking you here. We asked you specific questions to get a clearer picture of your view of this. I'm sorry if you feel you must be defensive, as we are open to hear all views and are not here to discriminate against you for your own. This is a matter of obtaining more understanding, not of trying to convince you that any of us are right.

However, you have not answered many questions that have been asked here. And Br. John, I have to say, is right. This is a point of view based on your feelings. In your opening post, and throughout this forum, you have only expressed the attitude that your belief and view is the one and all truth that all the rest of us must adopt.

Feelings? It's an objective fact that life is suffering, or at least contains suffering.

You are right Star Forge at least as far as Mayana Tibetan Buddhism is concerned. Life is one big piece of suffering, an unfortunate result of our own personal Karma.

Star Forge wrote: Feelings? It's an objective fact that life is suffering, or at least contains suffering.

Yes, "life" has suffering.....

The "feelings" being brought up, are your "feelings" that it is wrong to force a child in this world.....

If my wife gets pregnant, and the "soul" figures its not the right time,it can abort itself, miscarriage, whatever...

Similarly, the mothers body can reject it, if it feels something is wrong....

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Our attacks feel like such, because we are many, of similar mind and feelings....

Whereas you seem to be in the minority.....

It doesn't make your opinion "wrong", but you knew this would happen... Look at the title of the thread....

We agree to the "facts" that life has good and bad (ill debate good and bad elsewhere for the sake of this thread, I'm going along)...

What you are expressing, and we are expressing is our opinion....

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What fact do you have the a child is forced to be born?

If there is a reserve of souls, waiting their turn, and one decides the time is not right, could another not take its place?

Just speculating....

Yes there is suffering, pain and grief, nonetheless I'm delighted to be here. You (Star Forge) being here is certainly making my day more interesting and I hope it's some fun for you too. Buddha taught the notion of self is an illusion. Suffering there is but no one to suffer.

It comes down to this being right for you to decide for yourself. You have the right to advocate it.

Br. John wrote: Yes there is suffering, pain and grief, nonetheless I'm delighted to be here. You (Star Forge) being here is certainly making my day more interesting and I hope it's some fun for you too. Buddha taught the notion of self is an illusion. Suffering there is but no one to suffer.

It comes down to this being right for you to decide for yourself. You have the right to advocate it.

The big question is if you had the power to render all humans sterile would you do it?

Hell no. While I wish all people would make that decision, I would NOT make it for them. I would be hypocritical if I did. I mean, calling myself pro-choice but making a choice for someone else, or calling myself an antinatalist, while being as tyrannical as authoritarian natalist bigots like Bill Gothard. I would never force a belief or conviction on anyone, I can only give them the reasons why I hold my convictions and hope they understand.

I know you think I'm attacking you. I'm not! I'm just saying that all this is YOUR opinion and that YOU are the one to decide if this is right for you. I should add, I don't want kids! At least not in any foreseeable future. I've got too many things I want to do in this life and family has always just seemed to slow me down. Do I think that it's morally wrong? Well, how many kids do you want to have? Is it a responsible number? Or are you the Octomom or the Duggars? My concern in bringing a child into this world is, what kind of world am I bringing them into? Will they be able to have opportunities at success in life? Will they be able to prosper? Will they continue the cycle of life and the living Force, peacefully? Do I think the act of birth or procreation in any sense of the word is horrible in any way? No! I think the big problem for most people here, in terms of your opinions, is that this seems to come from an area of personal disgust with the entirety of humanity and it's processes. Which, being that you are human, seems also to come from an area of self loathing. You have said you have thought of mutilating your body to rid yourself of even the desire for any sexual contact.. That seems to me like someone who doesn't have much love of self!

Obviously there is a point of disagreement andm Star Forge, you feel as though we're making ad hominem attacks against your argument. While not saying it directly you've also classified our responses as red herrings, specifically wishful thinking. I'd like to step back a moment and look at our situation logically and see if we can find common ground.

Your argument made into a formal statement would be "If children must have a life of suffering they should not be brought into the world. Life is suffering. Children should not be born." The prevalent counter-argument on the conversation could be expressed "If children must have a life of suffering they should not be brought into the world. Life is a mixture of suffering and joy and therefore not a 'life of suffering'. Children should be born." The other prevalent argument is more indirect, "If children must have a life of suffering the should not be brought into the world. The soul chooses birth and it is not our decision, therefore we are not 'bringing into the world'. Children should be born." Several people are expressing a bit of both.

I don't think that anyone disagrees with the notion that if a life is destined to be nothing but abject suffering for its entirety without releaf it may be better off not occurring. The points of contention are whether suffering is sufficient cause to choose to not bring new life into the world when there are so many other things in the world than just suffering, and if the soul itself chooses when and how it is born, how do we hold responsibility?

In the first argument's case you gave several examples of suffering that exists in the world, however, they can be countered with the examples of love and charity and compassion and peace. I would say that the default should be that we do continue to have children if for no other rason than the biological imperative to continue the species, without children we as a speciese cease to exist. This places the burden of proof on the proposition that we should not have children from my point of view but I'm interested to hear your counter-argument.

The second argument is of a more spiritual nature and concerns our belief in what exists beyond the confines of the life we hold now in the physical body. If there is a sentience beyond our physical form after we die and rejoin the Force then just as readily consciousness before is as likely. In this notion, from the perspective of the Jedi doctrine, we must presuppose that said sentience exists and if it wishes life will take it when it feels the time is right as it acts as an extension of the Force. As such, if the world is irredeemable or there is no chance of the game being won we can expect it to all be wiped clean and started anew or the rules changed to start things all over again.

I will again remind you all that just because life contains some enjoyment does not make it desirable. And on the issue of souls being reborn, well, we all have our doctrines, but they are diverse, and none of them can be proven, so that should not be a part of the argument.

Look at it from this angle. Why do people reproduce? While many times it's just a side-effect of sex, it is often intentional. The unborn are conscripted into a life of suffering (yes, for the millionth time, I know life contains some fun do) because of the whim of one or both of their parents, or for some other person's gain. This is morally wrong. I've tried to be civil up to this point, but I get furious when I see the Duggars, or Bill Gothard, or even when I see pregnant women. I hate the sin, not the sinner, but when you're part of a very small and obscure view like antinatalism, it tends to be that way. To me, this is injustice. I've tried time and again to explain it to you all, and some of you had intelligent responses (except for that guy who kept quoting a book), and I've enjoyed the dialogue, but I feel my views cannot be reconciled with that of the majority of TOTJO adherents. Antinatalism is one of my biggest issues, and I would die for it. I am sorry that this turned into an argument.

Star Forge wrote: I am sorry that this turned into an argument.

And as such it is probably best for all involved to hold off on posting for now. Maybe give it a day or so, then we can possibly return to this topic and talk with calm heads

It didn't help that lots of people all responded within literally minutes of each other making a clear discussion hard to have

So just for the time being I think we should all just come back maybe tomorrow or the day after

I certainly quite like this topic and want to continue at a later date myself!

" ... just because life contains some enjoyment does not make it desirable." Not desirable for who? (Whom?) That's fine speaking for yourself. I'm thrilled to be here. You're not speaking for me. I'm happy my parents wanted to have children and I was one of them. How do you reconcile that? I bet I'm not the only one.


Let's take a quick unscientific poll. Are you, Gentle Reader, sorry you were born or (all things considered) either at least OK with being born or happy that you were born?