Apprentice & Knight Standards

Atticus wrote: "I know it when I see it."

Twigga wrote: I'm not saying it's possible to ACTUALLY pin things down; but it's easier to say "Yeah, I think this is under-par development; given the potential." (or whatever) when there's a guide that has a few examples attached; rather than raw doctrine. It's still going to be an interpreted thing - but it might be a useful tool to make for whoever's doing the "grading". It may, indeed, already exist; but I don't know.

"I know it when I see it" is pretty much what I'm talking about. You sense you're seeing it. You write "it" down, best as you can, for the bank. A group of folks everyone (majority) agrees CAN know it when they see it reviews the bank.

... I'm not precisely sure where this thread was stemming from - I'm probably missing heaps of background - but I'm thinking that people are suggesting somewhere that some folks CAN'T know it when they see it. That's ok, not everyone has the same skills. Why the tool? To help them.

No, yeah, I think we are saying pretty similar things. I was I think responding more to your first paragraph than your second, which I'm aware you said might be a difficult proposition.

I wish it were as simple as... (IW IW ASA) using a variety of subjects through a specific lens eg; where does your interpretation of the Force exist in {insert subject} and how could one better relate to {insert subject} by being a Jedi.
Judged on effort, as the medium for like minded pairing to explore the Force as Apprenticeship.
Structure would be shaped by shifting the focus of the subjects... perhaps in a scheme like the OP.

I've probably just gone back to the start haven't I :pinch:

Adder wrote: I wish it were as simple as... (IW IW ASA) using a variety of subjects through a specific lens eg; where does your interpretation of the Force exist in {insert subject} and how could one better relate to {insert subject} by being a Jedi.
Judged on effort, as the medium for like minded pairing to explore the Force as Apprenticeship.
Structure would be shaped by shifting the focus of the subjects... perhaps in a scheme like the OP.

I've probably just gone back to the start haven't I :pinch:

That is kind of why i set it up the way I did in the OP.

Look guys. I get that we all have a higher somewhat over reaching goal to an overall rounded Jedi of the order.

I get that we all want and should be by whatever definition......wise

I get that we all want our understanding of Jedi represented in the overall scheme of Jedi. After all, it means so much to us. Some here view it as spiritual, others view it as logical, myself i view it as internal over all growth. Some methods are shared, others are not ((Myself Im not really interesting in the religious stuff lol ))

I also get that coursework on common internet searchable subjects are not the perfect solution

But

They are at the very least a start? They provide conversation topics. They give ideas. They give diverse perspectives. They make you think, your Mentor makes you think more. To me, it is not about simply doing a history lesson, anyone can look up the history of Ghandi or Martin Luther King for example. But only a relationship between Master and Apprentice can break it down into something very very meaningful which will inevitably lead to other goals.

the thing is

Being a Jedi is a LIFE LONG PER SUITE, one that a large percentage of us has already done 20+ years of. - Apprenticeship is just 1 very small, very brief, very basic part of that..I have had many teachers and instructors in my life, and i can tell you I am still very much new and learning. Today, I Re-Learned that I am capable of hard lining my own personal Stamina and that no matter how clean, tidy, and nit picky i am...we are not exempt from dealing with Lice...yes...Lice.... on our own children. <---mortified. Wish my Masters of the past had taught me about that coz trying to learn it on the fly was loads of fun.... *sarcastic grumbling*

We shouldn't discount the silly minuscule subjects in some haughty pursuit of higher purpose. Wisdom, to me, is realizing that it is in those basic of things that true wisdom is learned.

In the OP I suggested exactly as it was stated in another thread. The instructor should work with the apprentice to draw up there own lessons. But not be exempt from practicing a few key book work lessons as well. Some of these book work lessons were things people here at this temple have asked for before...many times....logical and critical thinking, for example, has been requested for several years. The doctrines, everyone agrees should be standard.

Hearing what others have to add to the Lesson Bank does no one any harm, and may one day help Someone...even if that someone isn't you.

Whatever gets decided, its best to get behind it and give it a fair crack to see how it fares. Changes can always be made in the future by the incumbents or their replacements. Some progress is better then none, so I do welcome discussion in the slim chance it's useful to someone... or in the least makes me read my thoughts out loud so that I can rethink them :pinch:

Absolutely

But um.....This thread wasn't about what is decided....

It was just for us to talk about standards in general and share our own personal ideas. NOT to try and bully change...but to simply share and discuss....

So, i went through the topic and I'm not going to directly reply to any prior suggestions, sorry if I steal parts of any thought train here.

I have a few years of practice as a teacher for Biology, Chemistry and English and would like to support creating new standards for the apprentice programme. I know I'm not an apprentice or knight yet but maybe some insight into the basic theory of teaching might help.

A lot of the things said here are true: teaching knowledge is too flat, teaching wisdom impossible, as wisdom includes ones own opinions and you cannot grade them. But what can be taught are concepts like critical thinking, the basics of scientific thought processes, structuring arguments, communication... There's a wide variety that are categorised into practical concepts of communication, gaining insight and judging. Based on these three concepts one can create an entire curriculum with whatever knowledge can be agreed on. I'm not going to go into the topics, I'm not a knight. But any chosen topics can contain basic needed knowledge of a topic while simultaneously giving the opportunity to strengthen one's skils in the basic three concepts.
The practical part about this way of working between teachers and students is that the teacher has free choice of methods while still working towards a uniform goal.

Of course, this isn't a school and I do get that point, I just think this structure is quite useful because it gives a teacher quite a few liberties to tailor the lesson to fit the student's needs while not going off-road. Hope I could give some insight on my view. and maybe get this train rolling a bit

But what can be taught are concepts like critical thinking, the basics of scientific thought processes, structuring arguments, communication... There's a wide variety that are categorised into practical concepts of communication, gaining insight and judging.
[...] The practical part about this way of working between teachers and students is that the teacher has free choice of methods while still working towards a uniform goal. [...] Of course, this isn't a school

This is great, and really hits my original points, which I fear were obscured by the meandering nature of my earlier writing. Without delving back into what I meant about teaching from categories, this actually covers much of what I'd like to work with students on. And, at least for my part, I would be creating a set of standardized structures built around the ideas of thinking scientifically and critically, and applying that thought to the world with good communication skills. And there are other things I'd want to work with students on such as meditation practices and observing the world "holistically". But the overall point, I think, is that having certain things you want to impart to people (before they become Knights and then, themselves, go off to train others) isn't a bad idea. Making sure that, while everyone's unique qualities are respected, we're also diligent in our duty to improving the quality of the education offered here. We're not a school in a traditional sense, but we are actively teaching. In a sense, we might even need to be more careful about how we teach than "real" schools, because we're trying to focus on "betterment," on helping people be better humans, on helping them be Jedi.

We definitely can't teach everything in a one year or two year course. We can try to ensure that people who finish our course have a grounding that allows them to explore the world on their own. Anyway, I think that this doesn't even need to become institutionalized, at the moment. It's just good to be having the discussion while looking toward the future.