Apprentice & Knight Standards

I guess I got hung up on the "capable of being wise". I don't know how one would measure that, hence my hang up. Secondly, a lot of people confuse wisdom with the ability to confuse people with verbose, eloquisious replies.

See below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHZl2naX1Xk

Rex wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote:

Alexandre Orion wrote: Isn't the standard of our Knights how capable of being wise they are?

Could you please elaborate? I'm not sure I get what you mean

Maybe I'm making the quote up, but I remember someone around here saying knights aren't made so much as revealed. Wisdom is as wisdom does, so while I might not know all the secret handshakes, you guys judge people to be ready or not and I'm sure maturity and wisdom is a huge part of it.
The IP seems like a nice "toolbox" of knowledge to start with, but isn't the apprenticeship all about developing and exercising virtue? (S/o to Locksley for casually tossing in my favourite idea: Arete) If I become a knight, I don't want it on a technicality for checking all the boxes off. Challenge me at least to not just "pass" but to achieve excellence.

I can't like this enough, Rex. Spot on.

This isn't something confined to TotJO, either. Every governing body that awards the recognition of Knighthood looks at similar qualities of maturity, wisdom, demonstrable virtue, to one extent or another. The idea that I would take on a student and not make it a primary focus to coax those qualities to the fore is frankly stupifying to me. So okay, one could argue whether that is "teaching" or some other verb, but that's semantic avoidance.

This is why elaboration is important. I have my wisdom "narrative" which needed to be leveled out with other narratives. As it were, wisdom is a part of the tenants along with Focus and Knowledge. I will say this. I think they are written this way: focus, knowledge, wisdom for a reason. It goes like this: Focus--->Knowledge--->Wisdom. I think Zero_Storm said it was like an archer's arrow.

Ok now, here is where its gonna get tricky. Getting to the "wisdom" part takes trial and error and takes correction throughout life. You have to have an eye on what your actions, words or thoughts cause. And in an apprenticeship, you have another set so that if you don't see a consequence they do. I had a convo with one of my guys yesterday and because I am working through this as well, I was able, not to direct but to show him where his words or actions may have not been the best plan, and to show him, "look you keep circling around this mountain, let's deal with that".

The internet is full of knowledge. Knowledge is at your finger tips. Look at what we do with this "knowledge" in the world. The use of the right knowledge for the task for the betterment of self and world would be my definition of wisdom

Atticus wrote: This isn't something confined to TotJO, either. Every governing body that awards the recognition of Knighthood looks at similar qualities of maturity, wisdom, demonstrable virtue, to one extent or another.

And all struggle with finding the balance between having a fair and reasonable set of standards that create a suitable environment for producing these qualities, and not having those standards become something that becomes false or elitist. The latter usually falls due to it reinforcing spiritual pride and hubris, the former falls when the focus becomes more geared toward a comfortable environment than working to produce greater virtue. And we have enough examples of both that there's frequently going to be a lot of baggage to get past before people can agree on what it means to produce greater virtue/Arete, especially when it's combined with the challenge of doing so in a predominantly online environment.

You can have some guidelines of qualifications and characteristics that experience shows goes a long way towards helping people understand the process of Initiation and the landmarks that both students and sponsors should be watching for (because it is a two-way exchange), but there's so much that really has to come from building a process of trust, knowing the individual well enough to know when to push and when to pat, but most of all truly caring about getting each other through the process and closer to the goal. The more people understand that goal (which does mean having some clarity and definition about it), the more its value is shared throughout the organization, then the better chance there is.

What's wise for one person might not be wisdom for another, so perhaps its a nature of connection rather then an objective state. That would be hard to verify the presence or absence of unfortunately. One thing we can measure is effort and participation, so it does serve a use for 'minimum requirements'... and it might be just wise (hehe) to realize there will be a mix of good and bad Knights, but that this is from a particular perspective (which might not align with other perspectives)

So perhaps wisdom is a type of focus with useful knowledge, knowledge a type of focus, and focus a type of presence. Seems to serve as a useful training outline in of itself, tools for focus, using them to work with expanding and exploring knowledge, and then working to connect to others (ie the Apprenticeship, helping others on the path).

Rosalyn J: focus, knowledge, wisdom for a reason. It goes like this: Focus--->Knowledge--->Wisdom.

Getting to the "wisdom" part takes trial and error and takes correction throughout life. You have to have an eye on what your actions, words or thoughts cause. And in an apprenticeship, you have another set so that if you don't see a consequence they do. I had a convo with one of my guys yesterday and because I am working through this as well, I was able, not to direct but to show him where his words or actions may have not been the best plan, and to show him, "look you keep circling around this mountain, let's deal with that".

Yeah, I really like what you're saying here, especially your point about the process from focus to wisdom. That's a nice shorthand for the whole discussion. However, while it begins with concentration (could fill this word in with "mindfulness" or similar, too) and suggests a sort of continuous development toward wisdom, I would say that a stronger metaphor than an arrow would be a repeating spiral. I'll use the metaphor of Tai Chi: once you learn the forms sufficiently, you can put your moves together in any combination you wish, moving continuously). Focus leads to knowledge, and then back upon itself in an ouroboros loop; wisdom can emerge as a byproduct of this loop, though that is not a foregone conclusion, the likelihood of wisdom emerging increases through the application of Concentration and Knowledge.

But like you did for your student, I can't just say to someone "here is the wisdom. Look at it. Now you're wise, good job." I can help direct them to question their own perceptions, however, (and mine, and everyone else's), and work with them to build Focus and Knowledge into a pattern of thought and experience that might be considered "wise." I'd only add (unnecessarily I'm sure, but pardon the excitement which makes me continue) that part of the prospect of being "wise" is recognizing that the practice of learning, growing, "bettering," etc., is never something one "completes," just something one can continue to practice and improve.

Are there parameters for wisdom that generally anybody in this temple can agree with?

Perhaps demonstrative qualities such as:
Humility
Conservatism
Compassion & Empathy
Constructive Judgement
Prudence
Self-Care

Proteus wrote: Are there parameters for wisdom that generally anybody in this temple can agree with?

Perhaps demonstrative qualities such as:
Humility
Conservatism
Compassion & Empathy
Constructive Judgement
Prudence
Self-Care

I agree with all that except for conservatism.

Conservatism: commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation.

So, no. This is a young faith, and it has to grow, and with growth, change. Once we start agreeing we should just stick with the way things are, we stagnate. Upwards and forwards, always.

Proteus wrote: Are there parameters for wisdom that generally anybody in this temple can agree with?

Perhaps demonstrative qualities such as:
Humility
Conservatism
Compassion & Empathy
Constructive Judgement
Prudence
Self-Care

Absolutely, These subjects of course work are all knowledge materials that every student should dapple into and come to a healthy understanding.

The wisdom part dosn't come in 2 years of online jedi apprentice training. But applying these things into life long failure and success's.

Arisaig wrote: Conservatism: commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation.

So, no. This is a young faith, and it has to grow, and with growth, change. Once we start agreeing we should just stick with the way things are, we stagnate. Upwards and forwards, always.[/color]

I had a feeling that was not the most accurate term for what I was actually meaning by it!

By conservatism: the ability to know when to conserve one's resources, actions, judgements, etc. Basically, knowing how to keep from splurging yourself on impulse. (I'm not sure a better noun for that though)