Apprentice & Knight Standards

Trisskar wrote: Oh! Good suggestin Aqua How would you suggest going about it? surely there are already lessons just at a different level, so how would you.....level it down? As it were....so that Initiates and Apprentices can learn along the way

Oh, ehm.. I could come up with all sort of things on how to do it, but it is not for me to say how it could go.. there are plenty of people working on it, so.. it will finds it way.. :blush:

I could be wrong, but I've noticed, Triss,

And I have noticed you quite enjoy judging my actions and attempt to always dumb them down to accepted questioning I get your trying to be all teachery but I do believe I have a right to an opinion? Yes? No?

Granted Akkarin's post displays a definitive tone

Mmmm probubly why I responded in similar tone? Just saying! Everyone here entered this thread with a tone of sharing idea's. And so I responded in kind with curiosity to those ideas

Akkarin came with authority and desive response of what Must be done, shooting down the expression of knowledge and proclaimed how it should be rather than sharing ideas with the rest of us. Therefor I answered in similar tone because, like him, I feel strongly about the topic he presented.

and coming across defensive about it

Have you possibly concidered that your presseving this "Defensive" behavior? Perhaps you don't quite know me as well as you "notice" ? Im just saying....you seem to have formulated quite the opinion about me and you question my behavior quite frequently.....without following your own advice

This is precisely where communication begins breaking down

Actually, communication breaks down when we point fingers at people rather than topic...which could be argued that your the one that started that But hey...from a certian point of view?

I'm curious to see what your post would say if it continued on in the same vein and spirit with Akkarin's post as your responses have been to others'

How would you teach wisdom? How does that differ from knowledge? Are the only two questions I have which I planned on asking once the conversation developed more Which it has:




Twigga

he taught me "how" to think.

He taught me to recognise and weigh evidence

It is great that you are learning! Please understand that I am not saying you cannot learn these things.

But how is "Thinking" and "Weighing Evidence" different from the teaching of "Knowledge?"

What sort of subjects and lessons did you study to reach these acheivments?

How are these subjects not "Knowledge" based?

Aqua wrote:

Trisskar wrote: Oh! Good suggestin Aqua How would you suggest going about it? surely there are already lessons just at a different level, so how would you.....level it down? As it were....so that Initiates and Apprentices can learn along the way

Oh, ehm.. I could come up with all sort of things on how to do it, but it is not for me to say how it could go.. there are plenty of people working on it, so.. it will finds it way.. :blush:

Not true!! This thread was created in the spirit of sharing ideas!! No harm comes in cultivating ideas and sharing it with others. I am keenly interested to see what you can come up with!! Won't you give it a shot?

Trisskar wrote:

Aqua wrote:

Trisskar wrote: Oh! Good suggestin Aqua How would you suggest going about it? surely there are already lessons just at a different level, so how would you.....level it down? As it were....so that Initiates and Apprentices can learn along the way

Oh, ehm.. I could come up with all sort of things on how to do it, but it is not for me to say how it could go.. there are plenty of people working on it, so.. it will finds it way.. :blush:

Not true!! This thread was created in the spirit of sharing ideas!! No harm comes in cultivating ideas and sharing it with others. I am keenly interested to see what you can come up with!! Won't you give it a shot?

[hr]

Non seminary related Clerical study:

Novice: Clerical basics + Clerical structure & lessons both offered as bonus into the IP

Initiate: Required to have a chat with the Synod in order to become Initiate, purely for sharing information about the Clergy.
Would aid in establishing first contact and comfort with contacting the Clergy...

Apprentice: Clerical related lessons offered by Teaching Masters, from a selected Clerical lesson list made by the Clergy.
Apprentcies would be required to earn 20 points with Clerical related lessons in order to earn Knighthood.



[hr]

If considering all the things in this post, it would create one big point for the Apprentice & Knight standards, a requirement that would be a small part of all the other standard thingies demanded of Apprentices & Knights.. Notice that it would be a redesign of the entire Temple structure to make this one point both achievable and with a functional purpose. The main effect would be a more effective way of communication, a collective feeling, and hopefully a way to prefent build up problems troughout the Temple, the more the Clergy is involved and active as underlaying foundation of the Temple Structure, the better the Clergy can serve in my opinion. The structure could be captured in the following single point for the Standards:

Apprentices and Knights care for the structrue beneficial to the Temple by using their religious or religious related knowledge in combination with Clerical service intergrated within the Temple structure.

Note, if religion or religion based structures become a bigger part of the Temple and her standards it has a better chance to be accepted as religion. I am aware that is not the case in many countries at the moment.

Trisskar wrote: Wisdom isn't something you teach. It isn't something you can claim a "Must" on. It isn't something you can judge and it isn't something you can assign rank to. And before you take my rank bar, roll your eyes, and wave your hand at me for not understanding.......Wisdom is the one quality I can honesty claim a true understanding of.

Wisdom can be cultivated. No one is "teaching" wisdom, but cultivation is different. It's nurturing the seed of widsom in another. And, to delve into the philosophical, one might argue that those who boast of understanding wisdom may not understand it as well as they thought.

Trisskar wrote: Please forgive my strength in these next words but......

1. You don't get to judge that. Period.
2. You don't get to teach us about it. Period
3. You don't get to assume a guidance of knowledge and call it wisdom. Period.

And neither do you.

Trisskar wrote: If my "Dragon" and weakness's are so bad that I require a "Master" to show me the way....Then what I really need is a professional consular, not an internet Jedi.

There are no "internet Jedi." There are only Jedi, some of which happen to use the internet. To discount a relationship of any kind simply because of the medium it takes place in seems a little more than a little dismissive.

Trisskar wrote: Understanding is Guidable

Wisdom is not.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

steamboat28 wrote:

Trisskar wrote: Understanding is Guidable

Wisdom is not.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

And why is that?

Wisdom can only be learned from within, but it can be coaxed from without. Much like we can't force a seedling to grow, we can give it the water, sunlight, and nutrients it needs to become strong.

steamboat28 wrote: Wisdom can only be learned from within, but it can be coaxed from without. Much like we can't force a seedling to grow, we can give it the water, sunlight, and nutrients it needs to become strong.

In the end, through, it comes from within. Someone can coax as much as they want, but if it happens within, it is a personal thing, but it really can't be guided as much as understanding.

Trisskar wrote: It is great that you are learning! Please understand that I am not saying you cannot learn these things. But how is "Thinking" and "Weighing Evidence" different from the teaching of "Knowledge?" What sort of subjects and lessons did you study to reach these acheivments? How are these subjects not "Knowledge" based?

Thanks for the clarification Triss - my perspective was indeed given on the misunderstanding that you felt wisdom was not a learnable skill. For me; knowledge can be passive. I understand my knowledge, but I can choose whether to use and apply it or not in a given situation. Being taught the quality of wisdom however involves a complete change of mindset. It is, for me, a deeper understanding that alters the way I perceive (think) and judge (weigh evidence) the knowledge that I have. I offer this quote:

"You can get something from a book. That something may be so important as to lead you to the recognition of the real thing" Idries Shah

I know I am gaining a vast quantity of knowledge at the moment - my interaction with jediism has meant that I'm reading voraciously; at a pace I haven't since I was studying with him; however I know that a lot of the knowledge is not leading to a “living practice”. I understand the words; and they make “knowledge”; but I’m not letting them get in and change my thinking. I see this particularly through my response to Campbell in my IP journal (it’s not pretty). My recognition of the fact means if I had a go again today; my responses would be “better” - my interactions with the community here and my practicing of Jediism has sculpted me somewhat; but similarly it might need someone to chisel a bit of stubbornness loose before I can get more out of it.

So at one level we were studying “science”; but at another Tim learnt how to guide me towards a “wise understanding” of science by watching me do science, and I learnt how to live that difference out by heeding and trusting him. His offers of good advice told me things about my academic practice that I had not recognised myself, and I would not have been able to “get” (understand) alone - or certainly not in a hurry.

You could argue that studying science is knowledge based; but I see a qualitative difference that merits consideration. I believe I could have learnt wisdom off Tim regardless of the raw subject matter, if he had sufficient mastery.

Twigga

Twigga wrote: Thanks for the clarification Triss - my perspective was indeed given on the misunderstanding that you felt wisdom was not a learnable skill.

No worries. Absolutely wisdom can be learned. And it is important to learn! My argument isn't that you can't learn it.....it i that it can't be "Taught"

The lessons and prompts you were given are based on a scale of "Knowledge" Teachable subjects that encourages you to think and step outside your average reactions. Each of these subjects are Knowledge. Just like History and Science and critical Thinking. Each and every one of those subjects are Knowledge that encourages you to look beyond your daily routine. Sometimes, these subjects can even dig down really deep and in a profound way.

But the wisdom you gain from it?

That is all you.

That is you putting the patterns and peaces together coming to your very own conclusion which grows deeper and more soul bound the more you cultivate the practice of knowledge.


As Teachers. I believe it is our duty to provide Knowledge and guide understanding of the materials we assign. But the wisdom is all you. I would never dream to assume a claim to that awakening. That is far too sacred in my opinion.


Aqua

Notice that it would be a redesign of the entire Temple structure to make this one point both achievable and with a functional purpose.

I am a personal advocate of major changes in the pursuite of art Which is kind of how I view Jedi Standards, a form of art slowly being built up, torn down, and re-tried in order to develop a stronger future As the old saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day!! lol I think its great that you are breaking the mold.

I am honestly not too familiar with the clerical side. So I wonder. What sort of lessons in particular would you use to acheive these changes?