Apprentice & Knight Standards

My experience of wisdom acquisition with a mentor was not "all me". As I wrote, "(I) would not have been able to “get” (understand) alone - or certainly not in a hurry". Wisdom acquisition with a mentor was a synergistic and symbiotic process in my experience: It was "all from us". It was indeed sacred, but in my experience it was sacred because it was shared publicly through the scientific community through the quality of our academic practices. I make this clarification, as I would not like to be misrepresented, when I feel I have gone into plenty of detail on this subjective matter.

Twigga wrote: My experience of wisdom acquisition with a mentor was not "all me". As I wrote, "(I) would not have been able to “get” (understand) alone - or certainly not in a hurry". Wisdom acquisition with a mentor was a synergistic and symbiotic process in my experience: It was "all from us". It was indeed sacred, but in my experience it was sacred because it was shared publicly through the scientific community through the quality of our academic practices. I make this clarification, as I would not like to be misrepresented, when I feel I have gone into plenty of detail on this subjective matter.

I am sorry if I offended. You seem to of gotten a bit uppity here so i please understand that is not my intention.

Clearly you and I view it differently I totally get what you are saying, and have said. I just interpret it differently. No sweat. I am glad you are growing on your journey.

So, in general. To keep the spirit of this thread in tact and not spiral on another wisdom tangent of opinions vs opinionsXD

Lets put this question out there.


How can you use your previous ideas of standards in a manner to cultivate an opportunity of the wisdom seemingly aimed for? How can History and Science make people wise? How can Behavioral Cultivation make people wise? How can clerical studies make people wise?

I think one of the things that often gets misunderstood regarding the nature of apprenticeships (at least the potential nature of it), is that it consists of a mechanism of a master simply teaching an apprentice (and even worse, teaching someone how to be simply "better"). Under this model, its easy to assume that if someone brings up "wisdom" that it will try to be "taught" in an apprenticeship.

This was never the experience in the apprenticeship I had with Alexandre, and neither was it between me and Loudzoo. Much of our time revolved around a rather dynamic interaction that grew to develop a sense of wisdom between us because of the nature of how we discussed not only lessons but more importantly real life situations that we are faced with. The center of teaching was not upon the master nor was the center of learning solely on the apprentice. Both processes lied directly between both of us and that is where the process of what Akkarin talks about, took place.

It is a very personal thing and it is something that I don't think should be simply dismissed and shot down, but instead, explored and understood with respect.

All this talk about standards and accountability, just out of curiosity, how do you see accountability enforced? Assuming we get past all the derailment of dictionary definitions of wisdom and cultivation and whatnot. Lets say we define a set of standards, and hold people accountable to them. How do we do that? How do you enforce that? and if the person being held accountable doesn't agree then what? I'm curious to hear your perspectives!

Proteus wrote: I think one of the things that often gets misunderstood regarding the nature of apprenticeships (at least the potential nature of it), is that it consists of a mechanism of a master simply teaching an apprentice (and even worse, teaching someone how to be simply "better").

Kind of like the misunderstanding that people mean a strict learning process found in schools when they, as Jedi, talk about teaching.

Jedi Teaching, from my experiance isn't about forcing a viewpoint on another or framing a pretty jedi like box around subjects. It is about guiding a student through the steps and stages of understanding.

The Hero's Journey - for example. Is a cut and dry lesson that all initiates HAVE to do in order to advance in rank here at this temple. They are told to read it and give their opinions about it.

A teacher would then take the hero's journey and help them to break it down. Guide them into discovering the different steps in the Journey and identifying it in other parts of life. Other fictional references, in real life, in our history, and finally digging a little deeper to find it within ourselves. This is teaching. Not what your assuming we assume.

The points i have been trying to make is that as the student goes through the different stages of the Hero's journey Lesson, and steps deeper and deeper into their own "Understanding"

The teacher and apprentice will one day reach a point where the teacher can no longer guide or "Coax" and will have to step back. To take a fun quote out of the Matrix "I can only show you the door, You are the one that has to open it" The discovery of wisdom is then lead by not the teacher but the apprentice.

All of this was achieved first by the use of "Knowledge" and the "Tool box" to eventually the end goal.

It is a very personal thing and it is something that I don't think should be simply dismissed and shot down, but instead, explored and understood with respect.

Nor should any of the suggestions and ideas of Knowledge presented here.

Trisskar wrote: How can you use your previous ideas of standards in a manner to cultivate an opportunity of the wisdom seemingly aimed for? How can History and Science make people wise? How can Behavioral Cultivation make people wise? How can clerical studies make people wise?

Using a definition of a "wise person" as "someone who handles information well", I believe that a curiosity about these subjects, or any subject, coupled with a willingness to be challenged by other perspectives on that subject, could lead to wisdom. Assessing whether wisdom has been cultivated will depend on a good knowledge of an individual's initial "baseline" of "knowledge handling skills", and the quality of the final outcome when work is done. Can the "knower" of that individuals' baseline perceive any improvement? - Is that improvement "Jar Jar", "Padmé", or "Luke"... (pick as many tiers as you want).

Twigga wrote: Using a definition of a "wise person" as "someone who handles information well", I believe that a curiosity about these subjects, or any subject, coupled with a willingness to be challenged by other perspectives on that subject, could lead to wisdom. Assessing whether wisdom has been cultivated will depend on a good knowledge of an individual's initial "baseline" of "knowledge handling skills", and the quality of the final outcome when work is done. Can the "knower" of that individuals' baseline perceive any improvement? - Is that improvement "Jar Jar", "Padmé", or "Luke"... (pick as many tiers as you want).

Love it!! Thank you!! I especially like the observation bolded

Trisskar wrote: Twigga

Aqua

Notice that it would be a redesign of the entire Temple structure to make this one point both achievable and with a functional purpose.

I am a personal advocate of major changes in the pursuite of art Which is kind of how I view Jedi Standards, a form of art slowly being built up, torn down, and re-tried in order to develop a stronger future As the old saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day!! lol I think its great that you are breaking the mold.

I am honestly not too familiar with the clerical side. So I wonder. What sort of lessons in particular would you use to acheive these changes?

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Ehm.. the lessons should cover how to use the system as basic knowledge thingy, then further on a bit about what the system is with an eye to the nuances, followed up how to intergrate it into your own -ism and doing things.. It would teach students of the Temple how to deal with the Clergy religious system and familiarize them with the Clergy.

Topics that would be beneficial would be, but not limited to:



Initiate Program, non seminary related Clerical study, part I, Confession:
- Difference between Licensed Minister and Ordained Minister.
- Confession in Jediism.
- Rights and duties in confession.
- Usage of confession, and arranging a confession.
- Other services of the Clergy outside confession.

SIP, non seminary related Clerical study, part II, Structure:
- Difference between faith and religion?
- Atheism, are musea considered faith in art?
- Importance of structure to an organisation.
- Difference between religious structure and secular structure.

Apprenticeship, non seminary related Clerical study, part III, Recovery:
- Release of burdens.
- Signs of mental burdens in others.
- Problems that are larger than yourself.
- Chat with a TotJO Minister about the non seminary related Clerical study* (optional)
- Personal reflection of the non seminary related Clerical study.

[hr]

Lessons would teach:

- what the religious structure is;
- how to use this structure;
- importance of problems & recovery;
- personal reflection thingy..

Oh interesting Aqua! These are definitely categories I would not have normally considered. Probably because being a Jedi to me isn't religious...at all haha

I remember awhile back it was mentioned that the clergy was working on ways to re-name some of their more.....catholic-y terminology.....If you could get creative (and have a bit of fun with it) What sort of renaming would you consider? Clergy could be....Preisthood or Whills? haha something like that....Fun adaptions are healthy!

Signs of mental burdens in others

I found particularly interesting. Mainly because it can be quite a touchy and sensitive topic. Not very many people like to have their health related faults pointed out and discussed in a class like manner haha

How would you go about teaching this without risk of offending?