Apprentice & Knight Standards

Locksley

History: Vital for anyone to learn, and for a Jedi especially, studies of history allow one to act with greater mindfulness of the effect of actions through the width of space and the depth of time. Also promotes "pattern thinking." History studies also promote wide-knowledge awareness of people from multiple cultures (thereby removing the student from a purely local context).
Science: the student doesn't need to redo their entire pre-college education, but they should demonstrate a working knowledge of scientific principles. The main focus, however, is on "holistic" models of the universe; of understanding the interconnected nature of Nature and the complex and simple systems we both rely upon and are a part of. Ecology.

Interesting! What sort of topics in particular would you suggest in these fields? I have always been a fan of history...but mostly only our own (Jedi related) And i suck at science So im curious!

Rex

Apprentice's conduct

oh, that is a new one! I do like it. I think people need to be held more accountable for there actions then they are. The Jedi tend to get away with poor behavior quite frequently. It would be interesting to see what happens when they are held to there expectations.

Interesting! What sort of topics in particular would you suggest in these fields? I have always been a fan of history...but mostly only our own (Jedi related) And i suck at science So im curious!

Haha, well part of what I'd hope to address is something you just mentioned -- the idea of "sucking at science." Everyone can learn science and have fun with it! Usually, just like math, people were just introduced to it in ways that didn't work for them. Regardless, my first task would be helping people learn to enjoy science. A little Carl Sagan goes a long way in that regard, and though it's well out of date now his book Dragons of Eden is a wonderful introduction to evolution (therefore touching upon many other subjects) that's easy and fun to read while remaining informative. His Cosmos series, too, while slower paced, is more focused on "awe" than the newer version, so I think it'd fit in too. Outdated facts can always be relearned, but a love of science is harder to instill (and more important).

My goal with any of these subjects is to have the student concentrate on large repeating patterns and connections (the "holistic" frame). I want to help students see the interconnectedness of everything, explore it intellectually, and then (through other areas of training) explore that same idea emotionally and physically (perhaps through art, communication, volunteer work, etc.).

History, like I said, is something I just think is fantastic to study for anyone trying to "step outside themselves" and explore larger frames of perspective. How have people lived and evolved throughout the millennia? What patterns are there and what can those patterns tell us about our own lives? Why do people do the things that they do? What have great and heroic figures throughout history done to rally people to their causes? Why is there peace, why is there war? Why do we live in a Capitalist society? Why are we educated the way we are? There's just so much great stuff to explore. Plus, like with Guns, Germs, and Steel, studies of history can help to disassemble false arguments (such as "this group of people is better than that group of people") by placing everything within context.

Rex

Apprentice's conduct

oh, that is a new one! I do like it. I think people need to be held more accountable for there actions then they are. The Jedi tend to get away with poor behavior quite frequently. It would be interesting to see what happens when they are held to there expectations.

I do think that a focus on right action should be a crucial piece of becoming a Jedi Knight, yet I also think that we need to be careful to not merely introduce a system of demands and reprimands. In a certain sense it's not necessary. If people are acting well, in ways that showcase their own growth while at the same time supporting the people around them and the larger community, it will be pretty obvious. If they aren't, then they're probably not quite ready to be a Jedi Knight.

The problem is that I can't make anyone be a good person through force or coercion. Even if it looked like I had succeeded that would be merely a facade. And, especially because these are people training to be Jedi, we need to handle things differently precisely because we want them to be ready to help others grow and "self-actualize." The training process has to be more about leading by example, offering the "tools" that make up right action, and teaching people to be mindful while still striving for personal and holistic "betterment."

I know I got a little preachy, lol, but I feel strongly about this. I want people to behave in good and productive ways, and to communicate healthily and vibrantly, but I want them to do it because they want to, not because I want them to.

Locksley wrote: I know I got a little preachy, lol, but I feel strongly about this. I want people to behave in good and productive ways, and to communicate healthily and vibrantly, but I want them to do it because they want to, not because I want them to.

Its ok! And I agree. It is hard to find the right balance and nothing will ever be a perfect solution. At the same time...its not always about changing people as it is enforcing right behavior in a temple environment and producing proper representation of a group goal or idea. I fully believe in the "Jedi isn't for everyone." belief. If you can't act Jedi then you should prolly take it somewhere else. Obviously though those are for extreme cases, but still.....folks can't hurt by small critique's

Locksley wrote: I do think that a focus on right action should be a crucial piece of becoming a Jedi Knight, yet I also think that we need to be careful to not merely introduce a system of demands and reprimands. In a certain sense it's not necessary. If people are acting well, in ways that showcase their own growth while at the same time supporting the people around them and the larger community, it will be pretty obvious. If they aren't, then they're probably not quite ready to be a Jedi Knight.

The problem is that I can't make anyone be a good person through force or coercion. Even if it looked like I had succeeded that would be merely a facade. And, especially because these are people training to be Jedi, we need to handle things differently precisely because we want them to be ready to help others grow and "self-actualize." The training process has to be more about leading by example, offering the "tools" that make up right action, and teaching people to be mindful while still striving for personal and holistic "betterment."

I know I got a little preachy, lol, but I feel strongly about this. I want people to behave in good and productive ways, and to communicate healthily and vibrantly, but I want them to do it because they want to, not because I want them to.

You bring up valid points and creating a forced legalistic atmosphere is far from what I want. My vaguely formed idea wasn't a checklist for seeming "good enough" but rather just an open ended question. If I've ever come across wrong during my time here, and I didn't know it, I would want a chance to redeem myself and become a knight on good terms with everyone. The idea was that the TM could see what the responses were and then include those in his assessment. It would hinge on anonymity, and discretion (which seem to be big buzzwords anyways).

Locksley wrote:

Rex

Apprentice's conduct

oh, that is a new one! I do like it. I think people need to be held more accountable for there actions then they are. The Jedi tend to get away with poor behavior quite frequently. It would be interesting to see what happens when they are held to there expectations.

I do think that a focus on right action should be a crucial piece of becoming a Jedi Knight, yet I also think that we need to be careful to not merely introduce a system of demands and reprimands. In a certain sense it's not necessary. If people are acting well, in ways that showcase their own growth while at the same time supporting the people around them and the larger community, it will be pretty obvious. If they aren't, then they're probably not quite ready to be a Jedi Knight.

The problem is that I can't make anyone be a good person through force or coercion. Even if it looked like I had succeeded that would be merely a facade. And, especially because these are people training to be Jedi, we need to handle things differently precisely because we want them to be ready to help others grow and "self-actualize." The training process has to be more about leading by example, offering the "tools" that make up right action, and teaching people to be mindful while still striving for personal and holistic "betterment."

I know I got a little preachy, lol, but I feel strongly about this. I want people to behave in good and productive ways, and to communicate healthily and vibrantly, but I want them to do it because they want to, not because I want them to.

It's funny you would mention this : I often find my self reminding---- me - I'm not here to show people right or wrong or how to act or even how to see things .... ( my version of things) it's a hard enough light to shine and n even harder one to glow little own teach. The hope is that ... that focus of "I'm here to show you where your wrong" vanishes in me ... my own focus... I think if we can remember this for ourselfs often - keeping our own eyes on our own paper - Kinna can be a start to not needing regulations that constantly cite humility and personal focus rather than continue to standardize or - Sterilize things. There's gotta be some type of ... personal controll , right ? I mean we are ... Jedi right ? We have that character in us right or can have? I hope so!

It's great that you all have a lot of thoughts on this topic.

Before we begin looking at what an Apprentice learns we need to know what an Apprenticeship is for. An Apprenticeship must not be about accumulating knowledge, because an accumulation of knowledge does not guarantee wisdom. Realising wisdom is the value of an Apprenticeship.

Wisdom is cultivating the capacity to keep oneself open enough to find the point where what we feel and what we want to be true can be supported by the knowledge we've attained. Wisdom is contextual, but is always the meeting point between the knowledge one has access to and how it can be employed to that point where the mind meets the heart.

Knowledge itself is stale; it's a tool box wherein some tools are useful in some contexts, even for finding where wisdom arises, but some knowledge is entirely the wrong tool for the wrong job. Knowledge in and of itself does not foster empathy, does not foster compassion, it doesn't make one brave or cowardly and knowledge is, to be blunt, often wrong. An accumulation of knowledge can itself be an impediment to wisdom, especially when one becomes proud of the amount of knowledge one has amassed. A drawer of diplomas doesn't guarantee wisdom.

Everything an Apprentice learns must be exclusive to the needs of the Apprentice. If an Apprentice doesn't need to cover a certain topic then the topic doesn't need to be mandatory of all Apprentices. If the topics are not mandatory then they can only be suggestions.

The first thing an Apprentice should learn about is their own weaknesses, this would be done in a "What are my dragons" type course. The rest of the Apprenticeship should be about overcoming those weaknesses, this could be through learning about science, or meditation, or joining the Clergy, or history or physical activity etc. But these specific topics aren't what the Apprentice needs to learn, what the Apprentice needs to realise is wisdom, and the topics they cover to do this are whatever does this best.

so here are my thoughts to Akkarin's post (sorry nothing to really specifically quote)

Wisdom isn't something you teach. It isn't something you can claim a "Must" on. It isn't something you can judge and it isn't something you can assign rank to. And before you take my rank bar, roll your eyes, and wave your hand at me for not understanding.......Wisdom is the one quality I can honesty claim a true understanding of.

In the other thread and now this one. Its been brought up alot and I can honestly say......it is a weak argument and tool to base your standards and progression on. It is a skill that very few actually legitimately posess.

The examples you give is not the basis of wisdom. Taming your dragon and responses to internal conflict and growth of our weakness's.....Please forgive my strength in these next words but......

1. You don't get to judge that. Period.
2. You don't get to teach us about it. Period
3. You don't get to assume a guidance of knowledge and call it wisdom. Period.

If my "Dragon" and weakness's are so bad that I require a "Master" to show me the way....Then what I really need is a professional consular, not an internet Jedi.

Wisdom is something you gain and cultivate through knowledge. It is by the repetitive of experience's that you develop enough understanding to formulate new, deeper and profound avenue's. It is that time when you are able to see and recognize underlying patterns and observations and the ability to respond to one's own inner voice against all other emotions attempting to drive you.

Inner voices and experience and patterns are not something you can teach without knowledge and in person trust for each other.

To expect training Wisdom at an Apprentice stage, in the manner of Jedi forums......Is not wise Just my very strong opinions on this. And here I was trying to keep the happy motivated expressions here in this thread

However. Critical Thinking, Communication, Social Skill's and Personal life Management (tossing out the physical trash) ARE Things that can help "Tame Dragons." If you are all still insistent on tampering into our personal lives. These subjects are basis of knowledge that quickly develop "UNDERSTANDING" (not wisdom)

Understanding is Guidable

Wisdom is not.

I understand the validity of much of what you say Trisskar, but I want to share my perspectives on the idea that "wisdom is not guidable". I believe my experiences with Tim Guildford, my only ever one-on-one mentor, guided me towards wisdom through my own open-ness to what he had to say. I believe "thinking" is a process that belongs in the "wise things" category, and I feel as though he taught me "how" to think. The perspectives he shared with me were built on a very high level of knowledge, astronomically more advanced than my own, and his persistence in addressing topics of substance; including him not letting me get away with avoiding them. He taught me to recognise and weigh evidence; which lead me to both to a greater humility and to courage; to take a stance when I was sure of it. I want to convey that this is more than critical thinking or communication skills. That one-on-one relationship was, I believe, necessary to take the process beyond knowledge acquisition about how to think; and into a living practice of doing thinking. I could say he taught how to tame the dragon of ignorance; and I am very pleased I didn't have to go through the experience of academic life while being "ignorant" about how to think - the skill of thinking was necessary for good academic living. I think this experience is probably transferable from academia into jediism, but I've not yet done enough "jedi-ing" to really know Nothing to say currently on standards - I just thought I'd share my experiences.

Trisskar wrote: so here are my thoughts to Akkarin's post (sorry nothing to really specifically quote)

Wisdom isn't something you teach. It isn't something you can claim a "Must" on. It isn't something you can judge and it isn't something you can assign rank to. And before you take my rank bar, roll your eyes, and wave your hand at me for not understanding.......Wisdom is the one quality I can honesty claim a true understanding of.

In the other thread and now this one. Its been brought up alot and I can honestly say......it is a weak argument and tool to base your standards and progression on. It is a skill that very few actually legitimately posess.

The examples you give is not the basis of wisdom. Taming your dragon and responses to internal conflict and growth of our weakness's.....Please forgive my strength in these next words but......

1. You don't get to judge that. Period.
2. You don't get to teach us about it. Period
3. You don't get to assume a guidance of knowledge and call it wisdom. Period.

If my "Dragon" and weakness's are so bad that I require a "Master" to show me the way....Then what I really need is a professional consular, not an internet Jedi.

Wisdom is something you gain and cultivate through knowledge. It is by the repetitive of experience's that you develop enough understanding to formulate new, deeper and profound avenue's. It is that time when you are able to see and recognize underlying patterns and observations and the ability to respond to one's own inner voice against all other emotions attempting to drive you.

Inner voices and experience and patterns are not something you can teach without knowledge and in person trust for each other.

To expect training Wisdom at an Apprentice stage, in the manner of Jedi forums......Is not wise Just my very strong opinions on this. And here I was trying to keep the happy motivated expressions here in this thread

However. Critical Thinking, Communication, Social Skill's and Personal life Management (tossing out the physical trash) ARE Things that can help "Tame Dragons." If you are all still insistent on tampering into our personal lives. These subjects are basis of knowledge that quickly develop "UNDERSTANDING" (not wisdom)

Understanding is Guidable

Wisdom is not.

I could be wrong, but I've noticed, Triss, you have gone from an enquriing tone (one of being curious and caring to learn about some new ideas), to a tone of debate, and a lack of enquire, whenever this idea is brought up. Granted Akkarin's post displays a definitive tone to the ideas of wisdom and what he believes an apprenticeship should entail, I get this impression that you are having a reaction more to this definitive tone (likely a mis-interpretation of his sharing of his ideas, no different than anyone else's), and coming across defensive about it. While I think I understand why this would happen, and I can't judge you for it particularly because I have done this myself as well, I don't think it is necessary regardless. I don't think it serves what I think was supposed to be the point of your topic to give in to this kind of reaction and begin claiming that you are an expert in the topics of wisdom.

This is precisely where communication begins breaking down and one begins hiding behind their egos.

I'm curious to see what your post would say if it continued on in the same vein and spirit with Akkarin's post as your responses have been to others'... what kinds of questions would you ask and what kind of points would you hope to bring out with those questions?

Can we try that? I hope we're not all too expert at knowing in order to see...