Knights Tenure

tzb wrote:

Edan wrote: I preferred length of service for rank rather than work done... But that's just me..

Thing is, I could be here years and just sit around being an ass under that system, and gain rank. Or, I could work hard for less time. For me years of active membership isn't indicative of depth of understanding or quality/dedication of service, in and of itself.

Or... One can work hard improving themselves outside of totjo's rank structure...improve themselves, give back to their community, then have nothing to show for it other than thanks... Which should be enough for the person, but I would like us to think enough of those who serve here for a long period of time without being 'in the system' to recognise that work.. Perhaps neither system is 'best'

How do we know who will stay and who won't? I suppose that is something you get a feel for when Masters and apprentices meet up, but I'm not sure how one would enforce such a thing.

Stu, that's a great point. Thanks for saying that. I have certifications from Shambhala Buddhism, but I don't work for them. I'm not sure what the difference is. They are happy to give out the teachings if people give back or donate. Why should the temple be any different?

I see the degrees as purely theoretical, and the ranks as the practical aspect.

Perhaps my point is that when somebody completes the training, there should be some sort of marker that they did it once even when they no longer do it actively.

Much like how I might have a degree in music, but I don't do music as a career. I am still a music major and could do it at any moment if I chose to. (this is fiction, I am still a professional musician)

Edan wrote: Or... One can work hard improving themselves outside of totjo's rank structure...improve themselves, give back to their community, then have nothing to show for it other than thanks... Which should be enough for the person, but I would like us to think enough of those who serve here for a long period of time without being 'in the system' to recognise that work.. Perhaps neither system is 'best'

I know what you're saying. I guess it just seems outside of the rest of the structure to judge it that way. I could have turned up, given evidence of various books read and responses written, and said "Knighthood please"...

Similarly once I got my degree I could have gone to any university, shown my work and said " I'll have another degree from you too, please"...

To be recognised by the system I think it's fair to ask you do your work within that system, you know? I'm struggling to think of a comparable setup which does things the other way... and good reason why that's the case.

I didn't mean those who just turn up with evidence... I meant those who continually serve here helping others etc for a long time, who do work just not our programme, but who do not get recognised for it.

I'd rather have no rank, but that's not going to happen, so I like the idea of recognition where it's due.

Cabur Senaar wrote: How do we know who will stay and who won't? I suppose that is something you get a feel for when Masters and apprentices meet up, but I'm not sure how one would enforce such a thing.

We don't. We have no idea. But, what we do know is who's been in contact and who hasn't, who's been re-investing in TOTJO actively and who hasn't, who is taking time for their own lives (when they tell us) and who isn't, etc.

If this is a thing we discuss with seriousness (and I fully believe it should be), we wouldn't need any kind of predictive model. We'd just need to keep tabs on who we hadn't heard from (onsite at TOTJO or off) in a while, check on them, and see what's up.

Edan wrote: I preferred length of service for rank rather than work done... But that's just me..

I have suggested before that length of service be part of a qualifier for rank. Like, you have to do all the work and put in ten years before the possibility of becoming a Master. (just an example) To me, it just isn't feasible to be a "master" until you have had time to have enough experiences and time to actually deal with enough situations where the title Master might apply. IE... I would still have a ways to go before becoming a Master. And seriously, how many would think that I am a Master already? Not me! I have plenty of things still to learn and improve on before I think I am anywhere near that point.

The degree is actually independent of rank. It's possible to earn the degree but not want rank. Nobody has requested it yet.

I do have a question, just for clarification purposes...

What does it matter if some one is active?

I know that having senior people here to help out, helps out. Sure. But why would we need to keep track of them?

Wescli Wardest wrote: I do have a question, just for clarification purposes...

What does it matter if some one is active?

I know that having senior people here to help out, helps out. Sure. But why would we need to keep track of them?

1. Active Knights are available to take on apprenticeships and perform other Knightly duties and active Clergy are available for clerical matters. Knowing who's active and who's not lets you know who you can generally count on to answer a question in a pinch. This could be something as mundane as a question about the IP from a new member, or something that is a non-life-threatening crisis in a member's life. Time matters.
2. Knights and Clergy often speak on behalf of the Temple to people outside of it. Whether or not they're in a PR position, or any kind of official representative of TOTJO, the moment their rank or clerical rank is mentioned in conjunction with this organization, they will be treated as an expert in the field. Without a list of active vs. inactive knights and clergy, you run the risk of misinformation and inappropriate action by people who still wear their rank absent the responsibilities those ranks entail. This could potentially even have legal rammifications, and is something that should not be ignored.

Those are my (personal) main arguments. To better illustrate why I feel these are important, I'll give a few examples:

• A member has a spiritual crisis and needs someone they can talk to in strictest confidence. They used to know a particular member of the Temple who was a Deacon, and they attempt to contact her through the Temple. There is no answer. There is no answer for a very long time. The Deacon has been inactive for a while, but they're the only OCP the member knows well enough to feel comfortable asking, having not met many of the rest of the clergy. The member's need is not met.
• A member desires some guidance on a particular subject in the IP. They ask a Knight they've seen around a lot. That Knight answers as soon as their life allows them to, because they have made a habit of being active. They discuss the matter, and the member comes away with a new understanding of the material. The member's need is met.
• A local news crew searches through the community to discuss TOTJO with a Priest local to them. The Temple locates a Priest nearby who is active and in good standing. The Priest gives the news crew the information they need, painting TOTJO in a beneficial light. The news crew is free to edit this as they wish, but their impression of Jediism will most likely be altered in a positive way. TOTJO benefits.
• There is a news story of an individual who, while wearing a hood indoors, made a drunken mess in a local convenience store and got into a brawl. The individual is later identified as a "Knight of TOTJO", even though no one at the Temple has heard from them in over a year. Without the ability to prove that this individual does not currently represent the interests of TOTJO, the media's perception of TOTJO (and, by extension, Jediism) is tarnished. TOTJO suffers.

These may be hypotheticals, and potentially extreme ones at that, but they showcase the kind of forethought that the Temple should begin to move toward in an ever-more connected and conscious world if they wish to make their PR officers' lives easier. In any of the four cases above, a list of active and inactive Knights and Clergy would turn the situation into one beneficial for those involved. In at least half of them, a list of active and inactive Knights and Clergy would allow TOTJO to distance themselves from potentially problematic issues, and redirect those issues into something more positive.