The obsession with Rank

Thank you Jestor. The IP is the foundation. How can you build a temple with no foundation?

JLSpinner wrote: Thank you Jestor. The IP is the foundation. How can you build a temple with no foundation?

Very well put, i agree

tzb wrote: Flexibility goes both ways, though... like the flexibility to complete training one feels is perhaps inconvenient or irrelevant. We have expectations of Knights, of Clergy... the fact someone's not willing to complete the training required to become one doesn't speak highly to their work ethic, their commitment, their understanding of the learning journey both Knights and Clergy are charged with supporting here at the Temple.

In a way. In another, it's that some of us spent six months dragging our collective backsides because we walked into this Temple having already studied everything in the IP five years prior in a scholastic environment, and were frustrated with the lack of instruction or feedback. It isn't that many are unwilling to do the work; those will weed themselves out without any aid from us. It's that so many are either confused or bored or tired of the material in an environment that demands they express what they've learned without any keys as to what, at all, we are supposed to be learning.

I'd suggest it's far easier for an individual to be flexible than an organisation with over 25000 members...

One could also argue that an organization so large has more leeway to be flexible, as such a minor portion of it requires that wiggle room. For an individual to be flexible requires 100% of that individual.

I wonder what form you imagine that test could take... the training is like an extended test. It is a means whereby we get to know the person, their familiarity with the ideas and values we believe we need to see. It doesn't need to take years, and people often complete the IP in under a month.

If the IP is an extended test, the IP itself gives very little knowledge on the subject material of that test. Ostensibly, the IP is a set of foundational studies upon which further training is built. However, every response I've heard from knights regarding questions about the IP state that it is more for their benefit than the Novices', as it allows them to get to know said Novice.

Which is it? If the former, then the structure should be such that students don't have to continually ask "What am I supposed to be taking from this?" A scaffolding of expectation would not hamper individual learning, and may be very helpful. If the latter, why such rigid adherence to the texts involved? Why not choose some other arbitrary extended test?

The idea a few weeks of work are not worth doing to show you're ready to support members of our community seems to be undervaluing the support we're charged with giving, and, in private, give.

To suggest that supporting this community requires anything more than a desire to help is disingenuous. If you mean by serving with a secular rank, there are no responsibilities levied upon Temple members until the rank of Knight. Novices, Initiates, and Apprentices have only their studies. If you mean clerical work, there's an entire program--which is contingent upon one finishing the previous groundwork--before one may "support" the community, and even then it's barely discussed how to do so. But, in general, this community supports itself entirely, with or without rank or clerical structure. And if that support is so reliant on coursework, why not extend it to ensure that those trained are truly capable?

Elitist to have concrete rules which mean all 25000+ people are treated, given opportunity, assessed equally? I'd say it was the opposite

I would disagree that we have either concrete rules or that we "assess...equally." Every interpretation of the coursework, at every level, at TOTJO suggests that each individual should be treated as such, completely separate from every other. The only thing "equal" about the assessment in TOTJO is that members are expected to be themselves and hope that they are judged as such by what they say in the space of a few handfuls of paragraphs.

steamboat28 wrote: If the IP is an extended test, the IP itself gives very little knowledge on the subject material of that test.

When IP does not give more knowledge, research becomes handy..

Khaos wrote: Rank, ultimately, is the incurring of responsibility.

I felt this needed to be highlighted and quoted and possibly graffiti-ed on the walls.

steamboat28 wrote: If the IP is an extended test, the IP itself gives very little knowledge on the subject material of that test.

The IP may give little knowledge, but, if you are doing the IP, you have the internet, and Google, has the worlds worth of information.

So, if one cannot find information on the source material if it is not available in the IP itself, then they are fairly lazy, and have revealed at least some aspects of there character.

There is something to be said for not having to spoon feed every bit of information, and being self motivated.

steamboat28 wrote:
If the IP is an extended test, the IP itself gives very little knowledge on the subject material of that test....

.... then the structure should be such that students don't have to continually ask "What am I supposed to be taking from this?" A scaffolding of expectation would not hamper individual learning, and may be very helpful.

I'm sorry to so specifically pull out a few things that were said in the post, and I hope that it does not change the meaning behind the comments.

I just wanted to speak about this from my perspective, as a new student of the Force, and someone for whom this material is almost entirely new. Yes, when I first looked at some of the subject matter and quickly looked at some other member's journals - I was a little intimidated, not knowing what I would be able to get out of the materials. To be fair, I am still only working on the Joseph Campbell series. I do appreciate the open-endedness of the assignments, however. I am happy that there is not a more directed approach to the study, for if there was - I honestly do not feel I would get as much from the material as I am right now.

As I go over the material, I am free to concentrate on what the material means to me, and how I can use the imparted wisdom and knowledge to better my life. If it were a more directed course of study, I would probably be narrowly concentrating on what was asked, instead of being able to focus on the full and broad meaning of the works. What is even greater about this open-ended approach is that when I revisit the material, I am sure I will be able to gain additional insights and meaning from it - instead of just knowing that I answered a question about the material correctly.

I am not sure if I am even coming close to the intent of the comments I quoted above, but I do want to show my appreciation to everyone here for putting together such a fabulous self exploratory Initiate Program, which is allowing me to make new discoveries and realizations that I did not even know that I was capable of.

Thank you everyone and May The Force Be With You,
Cenrus

If the IP is an extended test, the IP itself gives very little knowledge on the subject material of that test. Ostensibly, the IP is a set of foundational studies upon which further training is built. However, every response I've heard from knights regarding questions about the IP state that it is more for their benefit than the Novices', as it allows them to get to know said Novice.

Which is it? If the former, then the structure should be such that students don't have to continually ask "What am I supposed to be taking from this?" A scaffolding of expectation would not hamper individual learning, and may be very helpful. If the latter, why such rigid adherence to the texts involved? Why not choose some other arbitrary extended test?

"Either / or" arguments don't go very far in our line of study, where many things are "this And that as well". So I was a little confused by why this was said, considering.

Khaos wrote: The IP may give little knowledge, but, if you are doing the IP, you have the internet, and Google, has the worlds worth of information.

So, if one cannot find information on the source material if it is not available in the IP itself, then they are fairly lazy, and have revealed at least some aspects of there character.

There is something to be said for not having to spoon feed every bit of information, and being self motivated.

You misunderstand me, Khaos. We all know the information presented in the IP at face value. My questions were not about understanding Campbell or Watts, but rather about understanding what the student is meant to take from the IP in general--what they're being "tested" on. That's something no one wants to discuss with novices.

Cenrus Kuno wrote: I just wanted to speak about this from my perspective, as a new student of the Force, and someone for whom this material is almost entirely new. Yes, when I first looked at some of the subject matter and quickly looked at some other member's journals - I was a little intimidated, not knowing what I would be able to get out of the materials. To be fair, I am still only working on the Joseph Campbell series. I do appreciate the open-endedness of the assignments, however. I am happy that there is not a more directed approach to the study, for if there was - I honestly do not feel I would get as much from the material as I am right now.

My intent was not to change the open-endedness of the lessons, but to give some small tip or hint to the novice in question. No one is going to tell you what Watts or Campbell's work means to you, but understanding why they were chosen, why those two authors' work is so important to Jediism, would make a damn fine loading-screen pointer.

As I go over the material, I am free to concentrate on what the material means to me, and how I can use the imparted wisdom and knowledge to better my life. If it were a more directed course of study, I would probably be narrowly concentrating on what was asked, instead of being able to focus on the full and broad meaning of the works. What is even greater about this open-ended approach is that when I revisit the material, I am sure I will be able to gain additional insights and meaning from it - instead of just knowing that I answered a question about the material correctly.

As well you should. And I will agree with knights and masters who say what we take from the material tells us much about ourselves, but the material is presented in a vacuum. It's relationship to Jediism, to TOTJO, as explained to new students starts and ends with the presentation of the work in the IP. It's never discussed why they were chosen, it's never discussed if we're even to question or wonder or guess at why they were chosen. They're just books slammed on the novice's desk that they're told to read and comment on. Comment, mind you, is a very broad sort of instruction. If a college course gave me that type of direction on an essay, I'd fail the class.

Proteus wrote: "Either / or" arguments don't go very far in our line of study, where many things are "this And that as well". So I was a little confused by why this was said, considering.

I find it eternally amusing how statements like this exist in a Temple who's membership is always telling me things are "this or that", rather than "this and that as well."

It was brought up because it's on-topic. The thread is about the obsession with rank, and has turned to include discussion of how many people seek to evade or skip the work necessary to achieve the rank, for that rank's sake. No discussion of rank at this Temple would be complete without a discussion of the very first set of ranks: novice and initiate. Hence, discussion of the IP.

steamboat28 wrote: understanding what the student is meant to take from the IP in general--what they're being "tested" on. That's something no one wants to discuss with novices.

That's simply not true. I've discussed this with every person who's asked for my guidance, which *checks PMs* is about 10 people in the last fortnight. Add to that posts on the wall and in chat. It's not being kept secret. The fact is 9 out of those 10 people were already well on course and just needed some reassurance. Guidance is available and proactively offered to those who are perceived to need it, increasingly so actually, and discussions amongst the Knights concerning this are common.