The obsession with Rank

Well I can't admit that I've heard anyone wanting to skip ranks or anything because of experience, though I don't doubt that there are people out there who are like that....

That said, I've seen a lot of new people in chat asking about ranks and what everyone has and the explanation that seemed to be most commonly given was that it was indicative of who was wisest about the site and what have you. *shrugs* Take that as you will... Maybe it explains a bit, maybe not.

SkiddyJ wrote:

Manu wrote:

SkiddyJ wrote: When people pick and choose from religious text what to believe that's when religions/belief systems become corrupted and people take advantage of them.

I would say it is the contrary. Water that stops flowing festers. Teachings that come from imperfect beings will always have attached to them the imperfections determined by the personal and historial context of the teachers, so clinging to a particular truth as set in stone can be a two-edged sword: in one circumstance, it can provide the focus, center and determination to get through life. But in another circumstance, it can be the anchor that does not let your ship sail in the wonderful depths of the ocean.

What about radicalisation? I probably didn't say it right. For me the TotJO Doctrine will be my foundation, which most is common sense and I am already following it. What I want to learn and take from my learning is knowledge that reinforces that foundation and grows with it. But if I say that some people deserve to be put to death, that goes against the foundation set by the TotJO Doctrine. In my eyes anyway.

Radicalization is not a result of misinterpreted doctrine, but from using actual canon to justify extreme actions. Historically, the more literally and seriously a society took its religious doctrines, the more they incurred in extremism and deviated from normal common sense, as fear was used to push people into a certain violent direction, which was later justified with literal doctrine.

For example:
Leviticus 20:27"A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads."

I don't forsee this sort of thing happening with TotJO doctrine, however. :laugh:

SkiddyJ wrote: I look at rank as "level of study achieved",

But what I love about TotJO is the amount of training, and the time taken to train someone, so it's hard for a power hungry nut job to rise the ranks and take over and build a Death Star so to speak.

This. I respect rank for the simple fact that it shows who has been around for a good amount of time. I can trust that person's perspectives aren't going to turn upside down because of one discussion, because they're more likely to have considered the issue before. It shows stability of mind, and I need that as a new person. I want to know that the people at the top here are consistent and aren't going to run amok; that's a trust that only comes with seeing that someone has been around for a while. Yes, my primary investment is myself and what I'm studying, but I'm also opening my heart to the community and really starting to care about this... I don't want to lose that.

And so far, I get that feeling. I feel that the leadership here is responsible, grounded, and at least relatively in tune with each other. The people with the highest ranks seem to just kind of flow off of one another. And that is awesome. I want to be that too.

I'm surprised that the majority of this thread has to do with either gaining power or that the majority of these obsessions are the quest for power or quest to progress quickly.

It's been in my personal experience, with how crowded we are as humans on this planet and especially in the US and I'm sure there's some of this in the UK, its easy to be dwarfed within any community. We as humans have the natural desire to be something special, or to be unique, with the size of our communities I think there has been a shift to have the natural desire to simply be recognized or have their accomplishments be acknowledged.

I don't know about anyone else but there's been plenty of times I've put in a lot of volunteer time and work in places and I don't get so much as a thank you, and that situation for the untrained can cause a lot of negative impact upon yourself. If your constantly in an environment where your not recognized for your achievements or work or time spent on any given thing. Your naturally going to want to reach out for places where when you do work/volunteer or otherwise you get recognized as being there, you get recognized for what you have done. Sometimes that means going somewhere else and showing them what you have done and trying to get recognized for everything you have done.

To put it in context, maybe some of these users have come from other sites where they feel they have done a considerable contribution but never got ranked up or recognized or even acknowledged for all their work and feel "dwarfed' for lack of a better word, so they come here looking for that, but doesn't want to have to go through the whole process again. I think for some the obsession comes from just simply a lack of recognition in their lives, which is a natural depressant in humans in general.

I know theres some credibility associated with that as well, no offense but I'll pull Gisteron as an example, he is a guest, if all you see is he is a guest, you may not really care for what he sais, but gist has been around for quite a few years, he does know what hes talking about on a lot of topics, but to new members, being a guest, they may not respect his knowledge as much as if they saw it come from a knight or an apprentice etc. I know some forums have support for a secondary rank that runs based off either time spent registered with the site, ie those who have been around for 5 years have a higher rank then those who have been around for 1 year, or even based off forum post count(personally I think the combination of two works better), but to add just another ranking isn't going to really accomplish a fix for any of that, it will do nothing more then to fuel the obsession even more.

I agree the with a lot of the previous posts that the ranks are not as important as new members see them to be. I see two possible solutions to this, one would be to focus on doing some lessons or a write up on the doctrine or faq page that better explains how rank isn't as important as one might think, where you could focus on desensitizing the members to needing that rank to feel they accomplished something. Or another idea is to provide some easier levels of accomplishment to work for, for those that may not desire to do the IP for purposes of gaining rank, but maybe want to do some self study in some other area's. Maybe some badges or certificates of some kind for writing so many sermons, or papers, or covering some specific lessons on the side, certificates based on active time spent or maybe even being recognized as a person who is good at spending time answering questions for new members or things of that nature. Something that doesn't give rank but recognizes you for your contributions.

The thank you feature I think is one of the most important features here on this forum for that purpose.

Once upon a time I've toyed with the idea of putting together a website that had online courses you could take that would teach you in various things and you could complete, it wouldn't grant rank in any way shape or form but would be a different way of going through lessons(there's certainly a portion of the community that would learn some things better that way, some people can handle online classes better then the real thing and some can't etc). I'm just not sure if there would be enough desire in the jedi(ism) community for something like that or not.

Rank, ultimately, is the incurring of responsibility.

As you rise in rank in any system, you should in some way, incur a higher level of responsibility.

This could be to become a teacher certainly. Or perhaps a leader( the two not necessarily being mutually exclusive)

Perhaps you are responsible in the sense of forums as a Mod or Admin.

In martial arts, you not only teach, but in systems with heavy sparring you become a signpost with target drawn on it.

Rank, is usually conferred offline by giving more responsibility to someone after seeing they have become adept by performing certain actions.

Not unlike being in a real apprenticeship, as when I became a glazier. First, I was a gohper, then I got small simple tasks, getting progressively more intricate, and difficult, until I became a Journeyman, and then a Master Glazier.

Same with nursing.

Same with martial arts. I was promoted on New Years eve in BJJ, and since, not only do I get quite a few more questions on what to do in a given technique, or sparring, but also I am getting rougher rolls, as all the up and comers want to tap, or choke me that much more. So, I have to improve my game accordingly, while also being a guide into how to beat me....

Online, its a bit more.....vague, but I always try to impress upon people its a matter of undertaking a highser level of responsibility.

Tellahane wrote: I think for some the obsession comes from just simply a lack of recognition in their lives, which is a natural depressant in humans in general.

..........After a while...one simply gets used to it. (or pulls away) :dry:

when i see Knights i think "these are the people who are most personally invested in Totjo - these are the people who do the most work and contribute the most of themselves to the organization"

not necessarily "these are the people in charge" and it certainly does not equate to an assumption that someone is more wise than anyone else or that i should follow or obey or accept what they say or believe as being true, simply because of the title

i absolutely respect those who have done the work of earning rank, and i celebrate and congratulate the titles and promotions with sincerity

when it comes to evaluating "who is who in relation to others" what i look at is "who is carrying how much responsibility?" and "who speaks and answers questions thoughtfully, from a place of experience, knowledge, and/or perceptiveness?"

you cant fake or skip ahead on either of those criteria, and the only thing a person can do to increase in those areas is take on and carry higher levels of personal responsibility, and build and increase personal competence and perspective (building perspective is a lot more than just "being wise" or parroting the "wise" words and ideas of others)

so the encouragement i would offer everyone is to certainly go through the IP, yes, but most of all start asking YOURSELF what it means to be a Jedi, and figuring out FOR YOURSELF what kind of work it will require of you to reach that status, as a living being, as a person, not simply as a screen name, or a "member" of a group or an internet persona, but as a real living human being, AND THEN GO DO THAT

if the temple IP and moving up to Knight status is the answer, or is a part of the answer that you come up with, then great, really, that's awesome and best wishes to you

but the real point of all of this is to develop ourselves as people, which comes as a result of personal effort and experience, and commitment

its the effort and the work that is the important part, not by any means the title, and, at least to some extent, people can see the results (or lack thereof) of that work, regardless of the title

i would say that someone with a title but not the competence or responsibility or maturity that the title suggests, is much worse off, in terms of being respected socially, than someone who is committed to developing their competence and their education but does not have a title under their name

I am a military person. Rank is a vital role in my job/life. I attained the highest possible rank for my field of expertise possible. What does that mean to you here at TOTJO? Absolutely nothing. It shouldn't.

One of my favorite quotes is: "A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." - Napoleon Bonaparte

I see it a lot more in American culture than others, but it reminds me of the need for a reward for doing things: a trophy, a title, a ribbon, a medal, a belt or a rank.

However, I put very little faith/value to rank. I take it at face value.

I have seen very high ranking people do some of the most brilliant things, and some that do some of the most asinine things.

In the military, rank is supposed to identify, experience, knowledge, prestige, recognition. and most importantly of all, level of responsibility.

I have studied 13 different styles of martial arts. Again, what does that mean to you here at TOTJO? Absolutely nothing. It shouldn't.

Each belt signifies a rank or level of rank, knowledge and skill.

The second style I walked into and talked about becoming a student there, they asked if I had any prior training. I told them yes I was a black belt in my prior style. Ego became involved. He wanted to test where I was at, so he could place me at the appropriate belt level for his style. The test turned into a full contact bout that left him on the ground in front of his students. I apologized and left. After that, I always told new style dojos that I was an empty vessel and there to learn what I could.

I have far more education, degrees and studies than I care about. I have been studying religion, philosophy, paranormal, and pschology for as long as I can remember. Again, what does that mean to you here at TOTJO? Absolutely nothing. It shouldn't. Degrees are another sort of rank. Associates Degree, Bachelors Degree, Masters Degree, and Doctoral Degree are all ranks of education received/attained. Once again, I have seen some brilliant Doctors and I have seen some real quacks.

All that said, again, I take rank at face value. Rank to me usually means a level of exposure to a certain amount of knowledge, education and experience. To me, it also means a level of responsibility to the members of the community that the rank was given by. Too often I see rank misused and abused, especially in the military and politics.

The rank of Knight at TOTJO means that I have been given the honor to be a servant to the membership of this Temple and I am responsible to help the Temple to the best of my knowledge and ability.

I walk my Path, my Journey, I learn as much, sometimes more from my Apprentices, Initiates and Guests here, than I have taught or passed on. No one person here is THE authority on our Path. We all have something of value to contribute/teach/learn. Is that not part of the reason we are here?

Karn wrote:
The rank of Knight at TOTJO means that I have been given the honor to be a servant to the membership of this Temple and I am responsible to help the Temple to the best of my knowledge and ability.

I walk my Path, my Journey, I learn as much, sometimes more from my Apprentices, Initiates and Guests here, than I have taught or passed on. No one person here is THE authority on our Path. We all have something of value to contribute/teach/learn. Is that not part of the reason we are here?

Thats indeed what it is about , to be of Service and to learn from eachother !

I'll just leave this here for what it's worth.

Humility: To accept the ego for what it is.
A Jedi does not boast of their accomplishments and knows that their accomplishment is its own reward.