The obsession with Rank

While I appreciate what you are saying, you took my quote out of context and used it for a different one; I was talking about beliefs not training.

Yes I did. No disrespect or misuse intended. I was emphasizing flexibility. Flexibility in one area why not another? I also acknowledged the burden it would be on resources.

I think it is well worth remembering that the "obsession with Rank" isn't the only form of vanity or attention-lust that exposes itself here at the Temple. Like many other congregations, this group has it's fair share of "humbler than thou" competitions, "Look at my sermons about how to eschew vanity" hypocrisies, and "I need to be the center of attention"-itis.

There are also occasions when I--me, steamboat28, personally--expect that others respect the titles and ranks that I have earned, both in and outside of this Temple. The reasons for this aren't because I demand to be catered to, but because of what those ranks and titles represent, and the knowledge and experience that they show me to have on certain topics.

For example, I once asked a (digital) room full of TOTJO clergy how many of them had any ministerial experience outside the Temple. Not "Do you have a degree in Philosophy or Theology?", not "have you helped a non-profit collect canned goods?" Straight-up ministerial experience, in any religion. I don't remember the exact percentage of people who responded in the affirmative; I simply remember it was nearly none. I entered this Temple with over 15 years of experience in various levels of actual ministerial work--planning outreach programs, counselling, visiting the sick, sermons and homilies, religious ceremonies, interfaith relations, etc. I hold a title for this outside of this Temple because I have done these things so long for multiple religious groups and individuals. So, when I speak to the TOTJO clergy about how clergy outside these walls function (and they do function, and well, and have for millennia), it's very unlikely that my words should be dismissed out of hand, because I have a track record of experience in this regard, a folio full of personal references about said experience, and tons of little bits of wood pulp hanging on my walls to corroborate said experience. Thus is a benefit of rank.

SkiddyJ wrote: I've seen Knights and Apprentices post in topics statements that go directly against the Doctrine in those statements posted, which doesn't scream experienced.

One of the things I have been screeching about here since 2012 is that TOTJO needs a formalized doctrinal structure, but that TOTJO members are not required to agree with said doctrinal structure on an individual level. This has caused something of a cognitive dissonance in most of the people who have heard me say it, and I'm typically waved away as a crazy for believing such.

Doctrinal adherence does not make a Jedi a "good" one or a "false" one. It makes a doctrinal Jedi, which is wholly separate from an effective one.

steamboat28 wrote: One of the things I have been screeching about here since 2012 is that TOTJO needs a formalized doctrinal structure, but that TOTJO members are not required to agree with said doctrinal structure on an individual level. This has caused something of a cognitive dissonance in most of the people who have heard me say it, and I'm typically waved away as a crazy for believing such.

Doctrinal adherence does not make a Jedi a "good" one or a "false" one. It makes a doctrinal Jedi, which is wholly separate from an effective one.

Very well said, and I agree!

tzb wrote: - We have over 25000 user accounts
- We have under 50 Knights, Senior Knights, Masters and Grand Masters (combined) after 10 years

oh wow. I had no idea!

Tellahane wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: One of the things I have been screeching about here since 2012 is that TOTJO needs a formalized doctrinal structure, but that TOTJO members are not required to agree with said doctrinal structure on an individual level. This has caused something of a cognitive dissonance in most of the people who have heard me say it, and I'm typically waved away as a crazy for believing such.

Doctrinal adherence does not make a Jedi a "good" one or a "false" one. It makes a doctrinal Jedi, which is wholly separate from an effective one.

Very well said, and I agree!

So, to understand you, and that is all I am trying to do...

You think we should have a a more formalized (which i dont understand how ours is not, honestly) doctrine, but not require members to strictly adhere to it?

If I misunderstand, I really hope you will explain it...

SO, then what is wrong with a 'loose' doctrine? (Although I dont see it like that still...)

We have a doctrine, and we allow interpretation, now, isnt that what you are saying?

steamboat28 wrote: One of the things I have been screeching about here since 2012 is that TOTJO needs a formalized doctrinal structure, but that TOTJO members are not required to agree with said doctrinal structure on an individual level.

For what it is worth, you may remember, I used to completely disagree with you on this (instead favouring the nebulous, vague status quo.) Over time my views have shifted to complete agreement. But that's a story for another topic.

In my church (The Episcopal Church), the rank system on the surface seems to be a traditionally hierarchical one: presiding bishop (our primate/archbishop) at the top, diocesan bishops beneath, other bishops beneath them, priests beneath the bishops and deacons beneath the priests. This is mostly accurate, except for one major detail: the ordinary laypeople are at the top, above the primate, and all of the ordained clergy serve *them*. This kind of thinking is not new - Pope Gregory I was the first to give himself the title "the servant of the servants of God" in the 6th century, a title commonly used by Roman Catholic popes now.

That's how I view such ranks, or really any position of "prestige," whether it is religious or secular. A higher rank means a higher level of service, not a higher level of respect that one ought to demand. It also means higher standards you're expected to live up to. Of course, not every priest is a saint, and not every Jedi knight is a champion of peace (or whatever.) This is why I'm glad it is difficult to become one, and that the vast majority don't. Monastic orders in Christianity and Buddhism often test would-be postulants quite harshly before admitting them, seeing if their intentions are true and committed - not everyone is fit to be a monk. It might seem harsh, especially in an age where traditional religion is dying out, but I feel like they have the right idea.

I had knighthood on my mind in my first two months here, but having been "tested," found that it was probably not for me. Am I still happy to contribute and serve? Certainly.

hiddeninthesnow wrote:

tzb wrote: - We have over 25000 user accounts
- We have under 50 Knights, Senior Knights, Masters and Grand Masters (combined) after 10 years

oh wow. I had no idea!

there was a time when we had only 7 active knights+

of those 50 knights+ probably 20 or so are very active with another 10 or so moderately/lightly active...

steamboat28 wrote: I entered this Temple with over 15 years of experience in various levels of actual ministerial work--planning outreach programs, counselling, visiting the sick, sermons and homilies, religious ceremonies, interfaith relations, etc. I hold a title for this outside of this Temple because I have done these things so long for multiple religious groups and individuals. So, when I speak to the TOTJO clergy about how clergy outside these walls function (and they do function, and well, and have for millennia), it's very unlikely that my words should be dismissed out of hand, because I have a track record of experience in this regard, a folio full of personal references about said experience, and tons of little bits of wood pulp hanging on my walls to corroborate said experience. Thus is a benefit of rank. .

You have my vote.

I have definitely been around long enough to have gotten the work done...

This entire discussion has brought to me that I am afraid of the inherent responsibility that comes with rank and thus do I avoid completing my training.


-and-


Now that I know I have to accept the emotion with out letting it dictate my actions.

rugadd wrote: I have definitely been around long enough to have gotten the work done...

This entire discussion has brought to me that I am afraid of the inherent responsibility that comes with rank and thus do I avoid completing my training..

Really really? That doesn't seem like you?