My Opinion. Jestor's Lie

That's debatable Drexid. As it has been pointed out by some of our Sith counterparts in the past (not sure if it was here, but I know they say it elsewhere), helping others could be purely selfish in nature rather than altruistic.

And to defend Khaos here- Jestor, he's referring to the fact that people in general may have the same respect for the Old Guard that he does. So whether you have that respect or not, has little impact on whether or not others have that respect. He's simply conveying his own experiences to help you understand why others may feel attracted to the Old Guard as he is.

I have tons of respect for new guard members as well. Br. John, as far as I know, is actually New Guard. I could be wrong, but I think the world of that man (if no one can tell, lol)- the same is true of Westcli, Akkarin, Ace Boizer, Talon, Ross Greenberg, Miles, Khaos, Raven, Pelar and others of the New Guard. I also have a deep respect for Vandor, Ellen Merrit, Jared Avery Michaels, Adam Yaw, Richard Irvine, Satelle, Seito Gabda, RogueAce, Lord Eilidion, and others of the Old Guard. Note that those names span more than just Jedi, some of them Sith, some of them Shadow, at least one of the names listed is Karth. All of them build up the philosophy of what we are today. We move forward taking information (what was it, thesis, antithesis and synthesis) of all the teachings we've led up to today.

This is how I see it:

The kind of Jediism practiced here is an orthopraxis, a religious practice interested in correct action. Our emphasis on practice has some similarities with Aristotelian virtue ethics, the Eight Fold Path of Buddhism, and philosophical Daoism. For the Temple to state that there is a light and dark side is contrary to the intent of our maxims, tenets and teachings which are guidelines to practice. It is not mentioned because to do so would be a doctrinal declaration which this Temple avoids. Even documents entitled ‘creed’, ‘belief’ and ‘code’ are neither dogma or a system of beliefs, but rather are statements that provide an outline for orthopraxis.

Demanding recognition of light/dark is a strong personal desire because the failure to get this recognition has caused some persons to leave feeling hurt because they perceive something vital to their identity has been minimized or ignored. Temple Jedi here seek rather humility and simplicity, to wean oneself from desire, to come to an understanding that the ego/self is illusory. And so, as can be seen in posts here, making light/dark distinctions is not important to our practice. Insisting on the distinction is a desire this Temple has left behind. Insisting that we are in fact ‘light’ Jedi or that we admit that there is such a distinction in the Force can be addressed by our fourth teaching against attachment which applies here, in that, this Jedi Temple is not attached to making this distinction. Making the distinction adds nothing that would guide us in virtuous action.

As can be seen in this thread and is evident in other threads, it appears to be the practice of light/dark distinguishers (Sith?) to turn (hijack?, derail?) threads to a discussion of this distinction. I think it is analogous to a Presbyterian web site thread discussing communion or baptism to be faulted by Roman Catholic guests on the web site for their failure to recognize that there are seven sacraments and not just two. Insisting the Temple of the Jedi Order not only recognize the light/dark distinction but admit that that is what is practiced here, I feel, is the moral equivalent to evangelistic harassment.

Alan wrote: Insisting on the distinction is a desire this Temple has left behind. Insisting that we are in fact ‘light’ Jedi or that we admit that there is such a distinction in the Force can be addressed by our fourth teaching against attachment which applies here, in that, this Jedi Temple is not attached to making this distinction. Making the distinction adds nothing that would guide us in virtuous action.

While I would agree with you in the sense that both light and dark are part of the whole, I would argue against your opinion that there is no such distinction in the Force. I could bring quite a few arguments to support this distinction, but I'll just say the following:

(1) In the lore, be it the movies or the novels, there are numerous references to a "Dark Side" and a "Light Side" of the Force....
(2) From a metaphysical viewpoint, I would argue that the Force in essence is One but that it splits into duality of Light and Dark as soon as it manifests in this realm of creation.

Ve-Lo-Zi wrote: While I would agree with you in the sense that both light and dark are part of the whole, I would argue against your opinion that there is no such distinction in the Force. I could bring quite a few arguments to support this distinction, but I'll just say the following:

(1) In the lore, be it the movies or the novels, there are numerous references to a "Dark Side" and a "Light Side" of the Force....
(2) From a metaphysical viewpoint, I would argue that the Force in essence is One but that it splits into duality of Light and Dark as soon as it manifests in this realm of creation.

(2) We do not really specify exactly what we mean by "The Force" so that is left a lot up to an individuals interpretation, as Alan said we are orthopraxic.

(1)That may be so for you, which is why I responded to the second part first, but we don't recognise that officially here.

Very well said Alan. I believe we (the TOTJO) had a lengthy discussion/debate on whether the Force "took sides" and the majority at the time seem to agree that it did not. I won't rehash, but even I being somewhat "Dark" acknowledge that "the Force" just is. It is ultimately our actions which determine whether it is "Dark or Light," and even then, it is our actions that are defined as such.

As long as I've studied the Black Arts and various religious paths, to this day, I cannot describe the Force as light or dark. It ultimately comes down to the individual, and what they do with it. Does that mean the Darkside is not a viable path, of course not. Given proper training there is absolutely no reason someone cannot utilize a system based around it without experiencing "psychological defects," (of course that does depend on the sanity of the individual in question before starting, lol).

I also distinctly remember the comment made by one of our previous members in regards to the Force dying if the Jedi didn't perform our civil duties....lol. It exists, and is largely beyond our comprehension, so we label it in order to understand it better. It's sort of like that statement by Watts, we've mistaken the model for the real thing... 

s can be seen in this thread and is evident in other threads, it appears to be the practice of light/dark distinguishers (Sith?) to turn (hijack?, derail?) threads to a discussion of this distinction.

Which, recognized officially or not by TOTJO, shows it is in fact important to some people in regards to there path. I would also argue it is most often derailed not by those who do find such a distinction, but those members who do not constantly bringing up there is none.

In fact I have gotten several PMs here in request to define my "Dark" path....but why would I? So I can be told that its not? Haha, that seems like a spectacular waste of time.

Very well said Alan. I believe we (the TOTJO) had a lengthy discussion/debate on whether the Force "took sides" and the majority at the time seem to agree that it did not. I won't rehash, but even I being somewhat "Dark" acknowledge that "the Force" just is. It is ultimately our actions which determine whether it is "Dark or Light," and even then, it is our actions that are defined as such.

This comes up alot, but in referring to the Dark path, or more specifically the Sith path, very seldom....if ever, am I speaking in terms of the Force anyway. So I am always confused by the argument that the Force doesnt take sides.

I do.

Of course, as an expression of the Force, in choosing a side, in making a distinction, as an expression of the Force, the Force in fact does take sides.

Living, breathing, proof right here.

Of course, I dont look at the Force as some ambiguous, vague, undefinable, ineffable thing either.

I largely feel that saying something is undefinable is a copout.

One of the biggest distinctions between the Dark and the Light paths I have noticed is that those of the Dark do feel that things can and should be defined.

I've been a Zen teacher for decades and I'm delighted to use clear concise definitions and helpful labels. Sometimes you need light, sometimes you need dark and sometimes you need some of both.

I don't ask about Sith, dark paths, or being evil to try and tell people they don't know what they're doing or they don't really believe what they believe. They might not know what they're doing but I don't assume it. I'm interested in what they see as a dark path, how a Sith is different from a Jedi and curious about various things.

It's clear there's all sorts of manifestations of The Force. They're connected but we can certainly see and classify aspects of them and that allows us to study and use them in ways we couldn't if we didn't.

Br. John wrote: I've been a Zen teacher for decades and I'm delighted to use clear concise definitions and helpful labels. Sometimes you need light, sometimes you need dark and sometimes you need some of both.

I don't ask about Sith, dark paths, or being evil to try and tell people they don't know what they're doing or they don't really believe what they believe. They might not know what they're doing but I don't assume it. I'm interested in what they see as a dark path, how a Sith is different from a Jedi and curious about various things.

It's clear there's all sorts of manifestations of The Force. They're connected but we can certainly see and classify aspects of them and that allows us to study and use them in ways we couldn't if we didn't.

Khaos wrote:

s can be seen in this thread and is evident in other threads, it appears to be the practice of light/dark distinguishers (Sith?) to turn (hijack?, derail?) threads to a discussion of this distinction.

Which, recognized officially or not by TOTJO, shows it is in fact important to some people in regards to there path. I would also argue it is most often derailed not by those who do find such a distinction, but those members who do not constantly bringing up there is none.

In fact I have gotten several PMs here in request to define my "Dark" path....but why would I? So I can be told that its not? Haha, that seems like a spectacular waste of time.

Even I sent you a PM about your definition...

Amongst many other "darkies"...

But, for the reason Br. John lined out....

The more I understand about your path, the more I.might understand about my own...

I, personally, have moved past it..

Very well said Alan. I believe we (the TOTJO) had a lengthy discussion/debate on whether the Force "took sides" and the majority at the time seem to agree that it did not. I won't rehash, but even I being somewhat "Dark" acknowledge that "the Force" just is. It is ultimately our actions which determine whether it is "Dark or Light," and even then, it is our actions that are defined as such.

This comes up alot, but in referring to the Dark path, or more specifically the Sith path, very seldom....if ever, am I speaking in terms of the Force anyway. So I am always confused by the argument that the Force doesnt take sides.

I do.

Of course, as an expression of the Force, in choosing a side, in making a distinction, as an expression of the Force, the Force in fact does take sides.

Living, breathing, proof right here.

Of course, I dont look at the Force as some ambiguous, vague, undefinable, ineffable thing either.

I largely feel that saying something is undefinable is a copout.

One of the biggest distinctions between the Dark and the Light paths I have noticed is that those of the Dark do feel that things can and should be defined.

And I am of the opinion that the need to define and understand everything, shows insecurity about the unknown....

"One of the biggest distinctions between the Dark and the Light paths I have noticed is that those of the Dark do feel that things can and should be defined."

I've no problem defining "things" as it were, I also don't make assumptions by mistaking the model for the real thing. Ultimately it's all conjecture until proven otherwise...

The desire to define and understand things shows curiosity about the unknown.