In Harmony With Nature

Thats a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way. :huh:
Even animals and plants can have an ego as they constantly choose that which is more pleasurable. Hmm...i guess at its most basic... If your a living thing you avoid pain because to much of it could kill you. Living things tend to want to stay alive but death is harmonious too. The only thing I can say to this is that humans (of Civilization) deliberately inflict pain and suffering to just about everything in their path while other animals dont. :dry:

This seems to put us at odds with the rest of the planet therefore it at least "seems" like we're not very harmonious.

Other animals dont HUNT DOWN or DESTROY other animals for the sole purpose of killing them off. Humans of Civilization do.

Let me bring up ants again. Not only do they kill off and enslave each other, but they kill off other insects and even plants in order to create farms for the plants that they like. If you look at ants, you'll see many similarities between them and modern society. Giant cities, wars, agriculture. They're such a force to be reckoned with that even people have made it onto their list of food items.

Other animals and plants may invade the territory of other life forms but they don't completely eradicate every life form in that area just to make homes for them selves.

Neither do people...then we would be dead too.

Civilization doesn't necessarily mean removed from nature. Raccoons, rats, dogs, cats, birds, squirrels, deer, antelope, spiders, and many other creatures have learned to adapt and benefit from our civilization. For many animals, people = food...and that doesn't just apply to pets.

Animals build societies just as we do, and to think that civilized people are somehow different or removed from nature is kind of silly. The more you look at nature, the more you'll see it in people and vice versa. Even the weird stuff like creatures who kill for fun. People, cats, dolphins...

Lastly and most important we are not humanity. We do not represent humans as a whole we only represent our one culture (Civilization). There are humans that live very harmonious with nature and these people are tribal.

True, there many different societies and cultures. However, I'm not sure I would place tribal society above all others. They're people just like the rest of us, and they make mistakes too like overhunting and wars.

I'm not saying our society is right or the perfect fit for humanity. All I'm saying is it helps to look at this issue with open eyes and a sense of moderation. Not everything man has made is bad. Some of it is quite good, and technology can be helpful in keeping our natural world intact. There's no quicker way to spread knowledge, news, and new ideas that can help divert threats and save species.

Wendaline what you're telling me is that ants have completely killed off other species of insects? If thats true color me shocked. (REALLY) Now it is a bit of a stretch to claim that because 2 species out of MILLIONS have one similar trait that that somehow brings us back in to harmony. But to show a clear difference between humans and other animals I'll point out that humans of Civilization believe all other humans should live this way and that its the one right way for people to live. Ants dont do this... :dry:

Believe me Wendaline if we continue to eradicate every living thing we come across just to make homes and farms for ourselves we will be dead. That would be why I'm so adamant with the idea that we live in harmony.

Raccoons, rats, dogs, cats, birds, squirrels, deer, antelope, spiders, and many other creatures have learned to adapt and benefit from our civilization.

These animals adapted to civilization in order to survive as animals do. Cats and dogs specifically behave more like their owners than wild animals how ever if cast out into the wild will quickly remember their wilder side in order to survive. You named 9 animals that have adapted to Civilization, I can only point at the 200 species that die a day that aren't so lucky.

Animals build societies just as we do, and to think that civilized people are somehow different or removed from nature is kind of silly. The more you look at nature, the more you'll see it in people and vice versa. Even the weird stuff like creatures who kill for fun. People, cats, dolphins...

We are very much removed from nature because unlike animals we build walls to keep nature out. Other animals might build walls or have territories but these aren't designed to keep all "Natural life" out. The only things that are allowed in our walls are the living things we want within our walls.

True, there many different societies and cultures. However, I'm not sure I would place tribal society above all others. They're people just like the rest of us, and they make mistakes too like overhunting and wars.

I'm not saying our society is right or the perfect fit for humanity. All I'm saying is it helps to look at this issue with open eyes and a sense of moderation. Not everything man has made is bad. Some of it is quite good, and technology can be helpful in keeping our natural world intact. There's no quicker way to spread knowledge, news, and new ideas that can help divert threats and save species.

Never have I suggested that tribalism is above any other society. Tribalism to me serves as a contrast between a culture that has lived for 3 million years without killing them selves off, to a culture that is on the verge of killing its self off in just over 10 thousand years. :pinch: Tribal cultures can be very harsh but they would never suggest that all other humans should live just like them. (I can prove this point)

No Civilization has done great things for us. Its expanded our lifespan, its allowed us to go faster than any other mammal on earth, and its taken us to the MOON!

How ever its not working any more and we should leave it for something better. We're the stubborn old man driving home in a beat up car that doesn't run anymore. If any one tells us we can make it home in this we'll stubbornly ask "If not in this than in what?". This shows a lack of vision on our part. The fact we have to use technology in order to divert threats and keep things together is a clear sign that we lost our "vision". If we didn't do things that create threats in the first place we woudln't have to divert them with technology.

There is nothing natural about the modern city dweller...

Whyte Horse wrote: There is nothing natural about the modern city dweller...

agreed.

A good definition for a city would be: A settlement that is so large that its local resources cant sustain it so it needs to import outside resources in order to to maintain its self.

This isn't very unnatural. :dry:

I wonder if the only harmony in nature is the apex ladder... survival of the sharpest. I'd like to think compassion would be a greater order, and that creatures unwilling or unable to adhere to it might fall victim to that new order BUT it seems animals have evolved over long periods in that current order and so a change would be turbulent to all.

In the case of harmony it matters because out of all the life forms on the planet we're very close to being the first ones to kill ourselves off. I would very much not want that to happen.

I do so wonder why everyone is no negative and doom and gloom. It seems noone can see anything but a dystopian future..Perhaps im too much an optimist.

I dont feel were all that close, and really, even if we were the first ones to kill ourselves off, well, extinction happens for many reasons, and I suppose being a precedence setter is something...original at least. I suppose you would prefer something that isnt our fault?

I dont deny the damage that humanity has done, but truly, it seems thats all people can see at all anymore. Which simply is not the case.

How ever it seems as though you dont actually want to talk about harmony you want to talk about why things do or do not matter and the judgements we place on things.

Certainly, as its going to color your point of view. To which is very much connected to why something does, or does not matter to you. Your placing a judgement on what harmony is, or should be, or what you prefer or think it should be.

However, your just one more species, on a ball of mud, hurtling through space. One of billions, some, more than likely have life in some form on them as well. You just happen to think that your ball of mud is super important. Which makes a sort of sense, except in the way you have applied your definition of harmony.

You could say that if a building has a poor foundation and will collapse in time, just let it fall. How ever if its your friends/ family living in the building I doubt they would agree with you.

Lol, as before, I dont have such a negative view on our future, or even our present. Who here is really looking at a poor foundation and a possible collapse?I am questioning the foundation of your judgement, and what is meant by "harmony", as it seems harmony to you, is not harmony, but personal preference of existence. However, I am also a realist, and in less than 100 years, what I think, one way or the other, will not truly matter, and no matter what you think you can do to save this planet, or "be in harmony with it". None of which will extend it infinitely. So likely, some long into the future relative of mine will have to face a collapsing building one way or the other.

Also if it REALLY doesn't matter Khaos, why'd you bother posting anything in the first place. :dry: Most of us will still think in very much the same way after we're done replying to your argument invitation. So why do YOU even bother?

Personally, I am just tired of the negative bent that seems to permeate peoples worldview. Most often ironically, in Jedi communities. I just thought I would give you some scope.

That what you consider natural is the same as your application to my argument invitation. A desire to have things stay the same. Which is probably the biggest problem no?

You, and others, will go on thinking the same thing, So will others, those that you say are harming, and not harmonious with the planet, and what change is made by staying in the same thought process?

Why, none at all...

@Khaos

Negativity is just as useful as positivity. I don't know about every one else but I can see something beyond a dystopian future how ever its not a utopian future either. If we kill ourselves off we will be precedence setter but there will be no one to care since we'll all be dead. Because we're human we can calculate and so I care here and now before our self imposed extinction. This allows me to plan and hope for the best in the future. Yes I would very much prefer something that Isn't our fault because at that point...IT ISN'T OUR FAULT.
The damage we've done is constantly in our face and has become more and more obvious over the years so of course thats what every ones talking about. Just like if every thing was peaceful and dandy that would be all people talk about. Just like when there's a war thats all people can talk about. Just like when there's a new invention thats all people can talk about.

Once again we're talking about the universe? Humans have not cased any measure of damage to the universe. Our mud ball is important to us because its our home. There maybe billions out there but we can't influence those so I fail to see why they should be more important than our home? :huh:

Saying that harmony to me is a personal preference is like saying that the earth is round because its a personal preference to Pythagoras. Sorry but the harmony I speak of was here before humans and it will be here long after humans. Just like the earth was round before Pythagoras so it is round long after Pythagoras. So the way things lived before humans is harmonious and still is harmonious with the exception of humans(Civilization). What I'm suggesting is that we become harmonious because its different than the way other life forms live. Why do I have to point these things out? They seeme so obvious.

Khaos you dont seem very optimistic about your influence 100 years from now. " James Watt patented a steam engine that produced continuous rotative motion " in 1781 thats 232 years ago. This is important because the steam engine was the basis for the industrial revolution. If people still live here 232 years from now it will be because they invented a new way to live. Remember that building with a bad foundation. Your relatives may not have to deal with it at all if YOU invent a new building for them to move into. You claim that we can only see dystopian future but you couldn't even see the possibility of a better building. I CAN see that future, thats what I've been talking about this whole time. Will this building be perfect? Maybe not but it will be better.

If this negative world view is spreading maybe its a sign that we're all waking up...you should too. :dry:

When you suggest that people shouldn't worry about something or that they shouldn't bother it confuses me a little. Are you trying to convince people of something or demotivate them... :huh:
In any case I doubt that that method will change their thought process if thats what you were going for.

But to show a clear difference between humans and other animals I'll point out that humans of Civilization believe all other humans should live this way and that its the one right way for people to live. Ants dont do this... :dry:

Neither do I. I'm a human from civilization and I don't believe it's the one right way for people to live. You seem to be a person from civilization too (using a fancy computer and all. Back my day...) and you seem strongly opposed to civilization. There's 2 people to prove your point wrong.

(And how do you know ants don't do that? )

These animals adapted to civilization in order to survive as animals do. Cats and dogs specifically behave more like their owners than wild animals how ever if cast out into the wild will quickly remember their wilder side in order to survive. You named 9 animals that have adapted to Civilization, I can only point at the 200 species that die a day that aren't so lucky.

True, except I think the theory is that humans, cats, and dogs came together because it was mutually beneficial. We used cats to help with pest control, and they used us for food and protection. It's not that they adapted to us, it's that we both had something to offer each other. Oh, and dogs and cats who are cast out really don't remember their wild side.

Certain species join forces to make each others lives better. I'll just keep using ants because they're convenient, but other critters do this too. They protect other plants and insects that make their lives better while chasing away threats and pests. We do this as well. It's natural. Our habitat just happened to be more successful which is why it's grown so. It may seem like we're parting ways with nature, but we really aren't.

We are very much removed from nature because unlike animals we build walls to keep nature out. Other animals might build walls or have territories but these aren't designed to keep all "Natural life" out. The only things that are allowed in our walls are the living things we want within our walls.

Nor are ours. Look at New York City. Not only will you find that large park of theirs, but you'll find critters living in the streets, sewers, walls, on top of buildings, and even inside us. There is absolutely no way man could completely get rid of all other life forms...even if we wanted to, which I'm assuming most of us don't. Earth is stronger than we are, and nature will always be a part of us and around us. There's really no escaping it.

Also, I think that animals do, indeed, build homes to try and keep nature out. Prairie dogs build homes underground to safeguard themselves from the changing seasons and threats. (They even build rooms for different purposes like a kitchen to store food, bedrooms, nurseries, etc.) It's really no different than what our societies were built for.

Never have I suggested that tribalism is above any other society. Tribalism to me serves as a contrast between a culture that has lived for 3 million years without killing them selves off, to a culture that is on the verge of killing its self off in just over 10 thousand years. :pinch: Tribal cultures can be very harsh but they would never suggest that all other humans should live just like them. (I can prove this point)

I'm not so sure you can, but I'd like to see you try. There are quite a few different tribal societies out there. How do you know there aren't a few tribal people who think their way of life is the best way to go?

How ever its not working any more and we should leave it for something better. We're the stubborn old man driving home in a beat up car that doesn't run anymore. If any one tells us we can make it home in this we'll stubbornly ask "If not in this than in what?". This shows a lack of vision on our part. The fact we have to use technology in order to divert threats and keep things together is a clear sign that we lost our "vision". If we didn't do things that create threats in the first place we woudln't have to divert them with technology.

Okay, I'll be the old man. Leave it for what? Leave it completely? Because, sitting in my nice warm home in the middle of a winter blizzard makes me think that maybe I prefer technology to frostbit and/or death. I guess, the point I'm trying to make is people, society, and technology aren't all bad. Even when we do move forward to try to live more peaceably with other creatures, we won't get rid of technology or society because it wouldn't be smart. Learning and creating is what we do as humans. It is our nature and it is natural.

I studied druidry for years and the basic premise of this new age path is that we should be one with nature. Moreover, that humanity's problems are firmly rooted in an alienation and separation from nature. Even though druidry sometimes romanticizes the past and pre-technological society, I tend to believe that we must be one with nature. But to me, that does not mean we abandon technology. Humanity's move towards industry and technology is rooted in nature. I just think it is important not to indulge in technologies or industries that have negative impacts. I believe we must be smart in the the technologies we chose to pursue.