In Harmony With Nature

During the latter part of the 1800’s one side of my family were nothing but poor share croppers who could not afford to feed their families. Hunting game like squirrel and Opossum is how they kept everyone alive through hard times. Spring forward to the next generation and the Great Depression hit. Again my family took to their roots and went back to basics. As I am here writing this you would be safe in assuming they survived.

On the other side of my family, after the Civil War their plantations were disbanded and financial stores liquidated. They had never lost who they were or their contention with the world around them. You also reap what you sow!!! After the entire workforce was “freed” they stayed behind to work and took on our last name. Each family helping each other and seeing the whole through hard times. Then, a few generations later they were faced with the Great Depression as well… and like the other side of my family they stuck to their roots an lived with the Earth and not just on it.

Neither side stripped their land of all trees, hunted everything to extinction or profited by destroying what was. They worked with what was available to survive and managed and planned for the future.

Saying you are doing something to feed your family or care for them is a poor excuse. I was selling crack to children to feed my family. A lot of people will say that is an extreme example and you know what, it is. But I am not making it to be nice; I am driving home a point to all the self-centered selfish people who only care about the easiest way to get what they want right now.

Planning for our future, learning about the world around you and understanding that many things you hold on to so dear as a necessity of life is not so important are key elements to securing a happy future for yourself and everyone else.

This is not “your“ time to do with as you please. This is not “your’ planet to do with as you please. Anyone who says otherwise IS the problem. They are not part of the problem, they are the ones fueling the problem. They are the ones spreading the sickness of greed and selfishness. We are borrowing right now from the future. What we do now affects the future… that is unavoidable and it IS our responsibility and privilege.

Leandros Von wrote: The problem with deforestation also lies in the available work, A lot of the illegal loggers are doing so to feed their families because they have nothing else.

I don't remember what the scheme I seen was called, but it basically allowed for the government to charge a corporation such as Sony a fee in order for them to be allowed to produce X amount of extra carbon per year, this boosting their ability to manufacture more product and raise profit margins (good for the business)

Carbon credits are a green-washing scam: they improve the image of the company while doing nothing for the environment. Here's how it works in reality, and I know because I lived in Indonesia+Thailand and saw it first-hand:
1. Sony destroys the planet
2. People die and their families go scream at the gov't
3. The gov't orders Sony to stop destroying the planet
4. Sony pays a bribe to a corrupt gov't that owns a rainforest
5. The corrupt gov't sends in troops to massacre the indigenous populations so oil and mining companies can get their land and deforest it.
Enjoy your PS4!
Article about Peru massacre

Wescli Wardest wrote: We are borrowing right now from the future..

I like this... thankyou.

Whyte Horse wrote: Here's how it works in reality, and I know because I lived in Indonesia+Thailand and saw it first-hand

I'll refrain from commenting on your post as in all honesty, I know nothing about it, only that when I seen the documentary on the scheme it seemed an obvious solution, hence my mentioning it.

Thanks you every one for observing the disharmony of our planet. I'm glad we're not ignorant or indifferent to it. How ever humans are nature so anything humans create or destroy is natural. just kidding.

I didn't think it was a conversation about right or wrong. Just one about whether or not we're natural. Personally, I'm of that camp that believes we are a part of nature, and I don't understand how an entire species could disassociate from it. I'm not an alien. I'm an Earthling.

Your very right the entire species hasn't disassociated its self from nature. We don't represent the human race as a whole as I've said before we only represent our culture(Civilization). The Idea that "WE" are humanity is once again an Idea of people that think our way of life is the one only way to live. Thats why we consider ourselves the entire human species. As I've also said before there are humans that live in harmony with nature but they are not us.

And part of being on this planet is dealing with the fact that species live and die by each others (and mother natures) hand. Extinction has been happening since this Earth was created and long before we came along. Is it sucky that people have wiped out certain species? Yes. Is it an unnatural act? No.

True when a new species show up on earth changes happen to its ecosystem. Some animals do go extinct but this extinction doesn't continually happen. Animals do form an equilibrium with their surrounding area. If they didn't they would be dead due to bringing their food supply to extinction.

Just observations. Living out in boofoo land you see a lot of weird things you might not expect, and that sadly includes a few critters that have found themselves outside of society. People sometimes seem to think that they can take an animal that has spent it's whole life in our society and let them "free." Well, those animals aren't going to thrive in the wild because they haven't learned survival techniques. A tame animal can't magically turn feral. It's just not going to happen.

Domestic animals dont always return to the wild, they actually stay here but they do forager for food in the city instead of just expecting food to be given.

Haha, yeah I thought you might respond that way. I wonder how many different kinds of life live in the city instead of the park? I bet if we counted it would a really big number. That's because even though we don't see cities as being a part of nature, they are. Organisms still live and thrive in a large and varied number. Cities aren't just made of people. They're made of thousands of different species. We just don't usually bother to notice them.

How many different animals live in the city? Not many. :dry: New York state has a LOT of animals living in it. New York city does not. A vast majority of the species living there were imported from their "natural" habitat(where they are naturally found) to the city (where they are unnaturally found) and then put into prisons for our amusement. Absent of human care they would die therefore it is unnatural for us to bring them to a city. Doesn't sound very natural to me... :whistle:

No, but beavers flood large areas of land with no thought to what lives there. Carp, who are bottom feeders, have been know to greatly alter their environment by uprooting plants and causing trouble for other species. Large swarms of locusts have been known to swoop in and completely devour food sources other creatures rely on. And I know you seem to like a lot of examples, because a few just don't seem to cut it, but it's time consuming and I'm lazy. But I promise you that if you look into different species (animal, plant, insect, microorganisms) you'll see many of the traits people dislike in man. They kill, conquer, destroy, each other and each other's environments, because the name of the game is survival of the fittest and if you can change the land to adapt to your needs then you'll do it, whether or not you're hurting the other guy...because the other guys is usually competition.

If beavers continued to flood large areas they would no longer have the wood they require for homes. If they continue to kill off other animals they would no longer have food or their competition would overpower them. If they continue to flood everything than they will die. How ever they only flood the are they need no more than that. If the carp keeps uprooting plants they may kill off the food they eat or being the only food available will become the prey themselves. See as they are still here I doubt thats the case. If locust eat more food than they need soon they wont have food for themselves and will starve. Since they are still here thats not the case. You could claim that humans are natural because they are still here and you'd be half right. Tribals have lived on the earth for about 3 million years and they are still going strong. People of civilization have lived here for just over 10 thousand years and we're on the verge of extinction over a fraction of the time. How do I know...see the graphs and videos our friends have posted.

I'm not saying that man can't do better to help improve the lives of our fellow Earthlings (because we can). What I am saying is that our tendency to expand and create an environment that is more favorable to us is natural. If it wasn't then we wouldn't be doing it.

Once again this is the mind set that the people of Civilization are HUMANITY and we're not. There are other humans and other cultures. We are but one in hundreds. So to claim that what "WE" do is natural is to ignore all the other human cultures on this planet. They do not expand and create an environment that is more favorable to them. A lot of them are nomadic and when they leave, they leave the land they were on pretty much intact. Any harm they cause will fix its self in a very short time.

Unless of course, it turns out we really are some alien invader species...but how exactly did we find out way on this planet? And if we are then do we get to blame whoever put us here for all out "unnatural" and destructive actions?

Thats not a bad theory but I know your just joking. Seeing how we alter our landscape, grow only the foods we favor, change our temperature to suit our needs, and kill off our neighbors, you could assume that we really dont like it here on earth. :S Its a good thing we don't represent humanity or that could have been the truth.

I don't trust graphs with no verifiable numbers. It's just too easy to draw pretty lines to make people believe what you want them to believe.

Your very right the entire species hasn't disassociated its self from nature. We don't represent the human race as a whole as I've said before we only represent our culture(Civilization). The Idea that "WE" are humanity is once again an Idea of people that think our way of life is the one only way to live. Thats why we consider ourselves the entire human species. As I've also said before there are humans that live in harmony with nature but they are not us.

I never said that this culture was the only representation of humanity. When I say humanity I use it to reference our species. Not just one way of life. I think we just see these words differently. Semantics and all. Which, I guess is why philosophical debates are so tricky and fun at the same time.

True when a new species show up on earth changes happen to its ecosystem. Some animals do go extinct but this extinction doesn't continually happen. Animals do form an equilibrium with their surrounding area. If they didn't they would be dead due to bringing their food supply to extinction.

Maybe our society is in the process of forming an equilibrium.

Domestic animals dont always return to the wild, they actually stay here but they do forager for food in the city instead of just expecting food to be given.

Well yeah, but foraging for food when hungry is very different than flipping some "wild animal" switch.

How many different animals live in the city? Not many. :dry: New York state has a LOT of animals living in it. New York city does not. A vast majority of the species living there were imported from their "natural" habitat(where they are naturally found) to the city (where they are unnaturally found) and then put into prisons for our amusement. Absent of human care they would die therefore it is unnatural for us to bring them to a city. Doesn't sound very natural to me... :whistle:

See, that's just it. When I talk about varied life I'm not only talking about animals and mammals. I'm talking about all of it, everything. Insects, mammals, reptiles, microorganisms, plants, the whole gambit. If we counted all the different life forms that lived in New York City it would be a long list. Because no matter how unnatural NYC might look to the nature lover, it still is a part of nature with it's own unique "ecosystem" if you will.

If beavers continued to flood large areas they would no longer have the wood they require for homes. If they continue to kill off other animals they would no longer have food or their competition would overpower them. If they continue to flood everything than they will die. How ever they only flood the are they need no more than that. If the carp keeps uprooting plants they may kill off the food they eat or being the only food available will become the prey themselves. See as they are still here I doubt thats the case. If locust eat more food than they need soon they wont have food for themselves and will starve. Since they are still here thats not the case. You could claim that humans are natural because they are still here and you'd be half right. Tribals have lived on the earth for about 3 million years and they are still going strong. People of civilization have lived here for just over 10 thousand years and we're on the verge of extinction over a fraction of the time. How do I know...see the graphs and videos our friends have posted.

My point with those examples was that man isn't the only creature who inconveniences other life forms. As for the graphs, my stats class gave me a healthy distrust for them. Results for this things can be easily skewed.

Once again this is the mind set that the people of Civilization are HUMANITY and we're not. There are other humans and other cultures. We are but one in hundreds. So to claim that what "WE" do is natural is to ignore all the other human cultures on this planet. They do not expand and create an environment that is more favorable to them. A lot of them are nomadic and when they leave, they leave the land they were on pretty much intact. Any harm they cause will fix its self in a very short time.

Nope, we're just viewing each others words and arguments in different ways. It's like when someone utters a word that sounds like "Blue." I might hear the color blue, you might hear the emotion blue, and someone else might hear the action blew.

Nomads might not stay and cultivate the land, but many human societies have (even tribal ones) and they all try to make it more comfortable for them either in big or small ways. As for this societies behaviors, mother nature is perfectly capable of reclaiming whatever land we have taken. Will it be the same? No, because nothing ever stays the same. But I don't think you're giving Earth enough credit. With or without humans this planet will be here...well until the sun or something wipes it out. But even then the parts that make up this nutty planet will float around in space until Nature decides to reform it into something new.

Thats not a bad theory but I know your just joking. Seeing how we alter our landscape, grow only the foods we favor, change our temperature to suit our needs, and kill off our neighbors, you could assume that we really dont like it here on earth. :S Its a good thing we don't represent humanity or that could have been the truth.

We could. But if we assume that any creature who changes their habitat to suit their needs doesn't like it here then there are many different species who just hate Earth.

It's just funny, because I think we're arguing different things. You seem to be wanting a conversation about all the ways this society is destructive. I'm not arguing that we're 100% good and noble. I agree that there are many unhealthy and unsavory practices going on.

My argument is about whether or not we're driven by nature. And I believe we are. It's just sometimes species mess up and cause problems for themselves and/or others. They either end up adapting or dying. It's a natural thing.

There have been at least five mass extinction events over the course of the Earth’s history that we can identify. Extinction does happen on a more regular basis then we would probably like to think about. But that is because we (as a species) are very uncomfortable with change.

Change is a universal constant. It is the one thing you can count on. Nature plays her games and we play ours. The difference is that nature has a completely different agenda then we do. And I would not be surprised if “we” are not at the top of her priority list. In fact, it would not surprise me if we were on her “hit list.”

There have been several major ice ages over the history of the Earth and hundreds more micro ice ages. One occurred just over two hundred years ago and is recorded in our own history books. It lasted for three years if I am remembering correctly.

We are not going to escape the inevitable and those that deny it has happened or will happen again are merely fooling themselves… not me. Now, I am not preaching gloom and doom by any means. There was a movie where an actor said, “For the first time in the history of the Earth a species has the means to avoid its own extinction.” I believe this to be true. And we should strive towards this every day. Not just for ourselves but for our children and our children’s children. Technology can help our longevity as a species and as individuals. But do we deserve this gift?

Looking at society as a whole, I would have to say no. Why should we be allowed to continue to destroy and practice our selfish, short-sighted ways?

Change is hard and we can not ask the future to change for us. It starts here, and now. No one can make anyone else change. Change is something you have to want. It is a dream and a hope that drives us and we strive for.

And change has to start now…



Sorry, I’ll be done preaching.

Looking at society as a whole, I would have to say no. Why should we be allowed to continue to destroy and practice our selfish, short-sighted ways?

Lol, allowed? We didn't have to ask for permission from anyone. Past that though, there are many, a-lot actually all over the world working and looking to fix what we have done, both technologically and otherwise.

Most previous species wouldn't even be aware that there were consequences to there actions, and in humanities defense, some things, you simply can't forsee until the technology catches up to see it.

How many cancer patients show no symptoms initially? More often than not, we play catch up to fight it.

Man is now truly seeing the consequences to his actions. Mistakes, errors, etc, are going to happen, especially when growing and progressing at the rate we do, and I'm not just talking technologically. We breed a lot, and there are a lot more of us, supply and demand, etc.

Do we deserve this gift? To quote Clint Eastwood from Unforgiven "Deserves got nothing to do with it".

Honestly, does no-one really expect mistakes to be made?

I mean, short-sighted? Lol, really not so long ago, people thought the horizon was the end,and that earth itself was the center of the universe.

I mean really, a lot of progress and improvement has been made. I can only imagine people are turning a blind eye to it, or are specifically focusing on the negative only.

Alternate means of energy are being utilized, and such technology is being researched,etc.

A nineteen year old recently invented a way to essentially clean the ocean of plastic and huge garbage patches.

http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/teen-invents-device-clean-ocean-garbage-patches.html

Really, it's all about where your placing your focus, and above all your actions.

There is a lot of positive change going on in the world today.

You just gotta let go of being so jaded, and open yourself up to see that side, and hopefully, add your hands to the work.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Now, I am not preaching gloom and doom by any means. There was a movie where an actor said, “For the first time in the history of the Earth a species has the means to avoid its own extinction.” I believe this to be true. And we should strive towards this every day. Not just for ourselves but for our children and our children’s children. Technology can help our longevity as a species and as individuals. But do we deserve this gift?

Change is hard and we can not ask the future to change for us. It starts here, and now. No one can make anyone else change. Change is something you have to want. It is a dream and a hope that drives us and we strive for.

Do you actually read what others write or just pick out a few choice words or a sentence and the go off on a tangent?

And the " We didn't have to ask for permission from anyone." Is exactly what I am referring to. People so convened of their own superiority and inherent rightness that they not only would ask if they should, they wouldn't think to ask if they should, what the repercussions might be or take responsibility for their actions. It is a special kind of arrogance that allows some people to sleep at night... and sometimes I wish I had it.

Mistakes will always be made. They are a part of the learning process. And we often learn a great deal more from our mistakes than our successes. And I am not turning a blind eye to anything. But we are not discussing our successes at the moment, we are discussing our over all shortcomings.

And the topic in the science forum is a great place to see a few good trials and success.

Lol, my response wasn't specifically for you, I was just using the small quote to give some scope to my response. More the overall theme in these forums in regards to nature and technology,etc, specifically within this thread.

Relax.

I am honestly of the mind that it's not a product solely of arrogance. Sometimes, the answer as to whether you should or not will only be found on the other side of a choice. One doesn't necessarily know as to whether a mistake will be the product, but certainly, fear of failure should not deter one. I don't see rightness or arrogance...certainly my a level of boldness, but such is required in many of the fields that deal with such choices.

Easy to judge, and assume they a sleep well. Harder to be the guy to do it, to make hard choices, and not all do sleep well.

As for our superiority...to whom else do we look? As I said, there's no one to ask permission, and we are in the unique position to be a species with higher brain functions, etc that can actually effect a planet the way only natural disasters and meteors could.

Also, the percentage of threads regarding the shortcomings of humanity in regards to its successes are overwhelming in this forum as a whole. To which in my observation points to a blind eye pointed somewhere.

I also thought the thread was about "In harmony with nature." To which most went negative, however I see nowhere that says that had to be the only focus of the thread.

Focus, as we know determines our reality.

So I think it good to keep it in perspective that it ain't all been bad.