IP discussion area

I love different perspectives. To be honest, I don't think of Watts as much of a philosopher... in fact, I feel like he "muses" on Buddhist/Eastern philosophy and makes poetry out of it.

If you want good philosophy, check out Krishnamurti! Freedom from the Known is my second favorite book of all time, and it took me years to even begin to grasp it.

I'll definitely read Krishnamurti and D.T. Suzuki.

In poetry, my favorites so far are Arthur Rembaudt and Alexander Pushkin.

As of Watts, there are two parts in my problem with him. Neither is directly with his personality.

* One goes from personal experience: I've encountered in my life highly intelligent and philosophic people who at the same time were not paragons in any way, so that now I trust not intelligent talk but actions. I find this approach useful, as long as I'm mindful about using it.

* Second goes from application of Jedi philosophy: I find yin-yang approach mostly demotivating. It can be understood as a manifest of indifference and moral grayness: all the world is in unity, black and white are interdependent so there is no point of doing anything. IMO, in most cases authors/orators forget to say that human nature itself is light and therefore any shadow comes from unmastered fear of unknown. And the position of Jedi therefore is not yin-yang inaction but bringing harmony to the frontlines of human experience.

Really I don't understand how can a Jedi agree with Watts, when he protects yin-yang approach to moral.

Are we now welcoming "grey Jedi"?

If good and evil are interdependent, and are all parts of the same game, there is no difference between doing good or doing evil. What Watts states through his abstractions is that being a policeman or a criminal are equally moral choices. Surely, why not - if there are no policemen, there will be no criminals. If there are no doctors, there will be no illnesses. Isn't it so?

It is not. Disease is evil and it's a challenge, which doctors answer. It exists whether or not there are doctors.

I don't know how anyone here can protect Watts.

I request a disclaimer on lesson 2 and an alternative to Watts - minimum. I would prefer his total exclusion from IP.

I insist that choice of books for IP must be utterly responsible: books are dangerous and IMO choice of Watts opens young minds to subtle manipulations when they place their trust into TOTJO.

den385 wrote: Really I don't understand how can a Jedi agree with Watts, when he protects yin-yang approach to moral.

Are we now welcoming "grey Jedi"?

If good and evil are interdependent, and are all parts of the same game, there is no difference between doing good or doing evil. What Watts states through his abstractions is that being a policeman or a criminal are equally moral choices. Surely, why not - if there are no policemen, there will be no criminals. If there are no doctors, there will be no illnesses. Isn't it so?

It is not. Disease is evil and it's a challenge, which doctors answer. It exists whether or not there are doctors.

I don't know how anyone here can protect Watts.

I request a disclaimer on lesson 2 and an alternative to Watts - minimum. I would prefer his total exclusion from IP.

I insist that choice of books for IP must be utterly responsible: books are dangerous and IMO choice of Watts opens young minds to subtle manipulations when they place their trust into TOTJO.

Here there are no "grey Jedi", nor are there "light side" or "dark side" Jedi; there are only Jedi. The Temple is a place for all Jedi to come and learn despite their different approaches. Here there are Christian Jedi; Muslim Jedi; Buddhist Jedi; Taoist Jedi; even Atheist and Satanic Jedi. This is a place of inclusion for all that call themselves Jedi. I know that you don't see what goes on behind the scenes, and neither do I, but the training staff take great care in tailoring a plan for each student. The IP is just the icebreaker that lets them know how to tailor your apprenticeship should you choose to further your training.

If you don't like Watts, great, write about it, challenge it, tell us how you differ from him; help the staff understand who you are, and where you want to go, so they can help you. There are no right or wrong answers in the IP.

I personally loved the Watts lessons! The yin-yang approach fits within the narrative of my journey; I get it, and it gets me! There are other parts of the IP that I didn't care for, but I pushed my way through them non the less. The IP is specifically tailored to help all people no matter where their journey takes them; asking it to be rewritten to fit your personal journey would be counter productive to everyone else who doesn't share your journey.

I explained why i think Watts is a schmuck in some or more areas , but to demand other IP material is not something i ever considered . I agree with a few others here , read the material of listen to it and explain why it is not your thing , do not like all the material here ? That is possible , when i studied Philosophy and Counselling i had to read a lot of books that i did not agree with and even thought that added nothing to my practical knowledge , and i could discuss that in great detail. So ...just make the homework and thanks for the tips for alternative material

den385 wrote: Really I don't understand how can a Jedi agree with Watts, when he protects yin-yang approach to moral.

Are we now welcoming "grey Jedi"?

That lesson meant a lot to me in helping me release my strict view toward life. I would argue that all there CAN be are grey Jedi. There are no absolutes. There are no strictly good or bad people. The point is to see it all as interconnected. People do good things for bad reasons, and bad things for good reasons. Life is messy.

I request a disclaimer on lesson 2 and an alternative to Watts - minimum. I would prefer his total exclusion from IP.

It would be a sincere shame to remove something with such a beautiful view of life that can cause such a revelation in thinking.

Can I make a gentle (extremely gentle) suggestion that you may take or leave as you see fit? Leave that lesson alone. Take some time away from it. Come back in a month or after completing the rest of the IP, and see if you view it differently. Some things take more time to digest than others.

Peace

My problems with Watts are of personal origin, that now I understand. And my personal problems are for me to solve, not through changing of the IP.

My mistake was to approach IP lessons without critical thinking, with blind faith in that they will suit me. And that tells me something of me, not Watts, that I can't come to terms with.

I used to think that IP is just dry theory for me and consider that I can run through it without it being able to question all of my core motivations. I have mistaken in this and I am glad that I did. Otherwise, that would be poor initiation.

I'll take my time to digest this insight.

Thank you everybody for your explanations and warmth

den385 wrote: My problems with Watts are of personal origin, that now I understand. And my personal problems are for me to solve, not through changing of the IP.

My mistake was to approach IP lessons without critical thinking, with blind faith in that they will suit me. And that tells me something of me, not Watts, that I can't come to terms with.

I used to think that IP is just dry theory for me and consider that I can run through it without it being able to question all of my core motivations. I have mistaken in this and I am glad that I did. Otherwise, that would be poor initiation.

I'll take my time to digest this insight.

Thank you everybody for your explanations and warmth

That is not as uncommon as you might think Den, i had the same with my counselling studies , i assumed that everything i was being offered fitted my view loll , in hignsight i am glad i ploddet throught the muck and picked the best lessons for me , i think the IP is set up well but also needs a critical view , that is a good thing ! Enjoy the resistance you feel , that sounds odd but makes us learn a lot , friction makes a diamont shine ....good luck friend

Good work, Den.

It is our questioning that brings the truth to light.
It is the struggle of thinking critically that illuminates what lies hidden in darkness and shadow.

Your openness is a testament to your own integrity and wisdom. I suggest, rather than looking for moral paragons in the life of the author, realize that you are that moral paragon. Questioning our own thoughts and actions is part of the practice of Jedi ethics. The IP is designed so that we may have the opportunity to learn here what we would then live at home.

Thank you!

There are lessons here which come when are least expected. That's why TOTJO does work.

As of my current lesson, it furthered me in integrity, this I know. It's full message is yet to be understood by me.

I am grateful.