Trans

In contrast to previous investigations, this new study found that male-to-female transsexuals grey-matter was similar in most areas of the brain to the male rather than female comparison group.

Except, that is, for one area, the putamen, a deep brain structure that forms part of the basal ganglia – known for its wide range of functions and connections to the frontal lobes and action control areas.

Because we know so little about the neuroscience of self-image and gender-identity it’s almost impossible to draw any conclusions for the fact that this specific area seems more ‘feminine’, or that the majority of the other areas seem more ‘masculine’ in terms of size.

What this study does do, however, is add to the increasing evidence that there are some detectable neurological differences in the brains of transgendered people. We’re just not in a position to say much about the significance of this yet.

I believe birth control really took off in the 70's so now you're seeing massive spikes in trans population in people under the age of 43 or so. There are also massive spikes in gay, bi, lesbian, queer, etc(from 145,000 in 1990, to just under 600,000 in 2000).

Cross-dressing, homosexuality… these are not new concepts. All throughout history we can see examples of this in every race and every corner of the Earth. It hasn't been till recently that medical technology made it possible for people’s bodies to reflect on the outside what was on the inside.

And all though sever peoples throughout time have claimed to be enlightened, it hasn't been till recently that these individuals have been able to be open about their sexuality, their desires and who they are without suffering massive repercussions.

During Antiquity, homosexual acts were far more common place than they might be today but even now there are extreme prejudices and who knows how many people do not come forward. How many live in fear and are unable to be who they are?

I wouldn't be surprised if most statistics are nothing more than counting something, and then associating it to something else and calling it proof. Coincidence is not proof. It’s either dumb luck or poor science.

Alexandre Orion wrote: ren, your metaphor choice could only be described as insulting.

So, stop it.

The shaft consists of two airbags surrounded by flesh taken from elsewhere, and the testes are air pumps. Also, I think I'm going to continue. Thanks anyway for putting your demands in bold.

1. It enables them to have sex organs, which can serve many life purposes. Anything from having a normal hetero relationship with sex to becoming a playboy model to whatever goes along with the organ.

These "sex organs" comprise of a previous sex organ's nerves and flesh, as well as some other stuff like flesh taken from elsewhere and implants. Someone who has their penis transformed into a clitoris and vagina really still has a penis, as far as the nervous connection is concerned. I feel someone with a camera or microphone implant (which involves direct electrical wiring to the brain) has a more valid claim to sight or hearing than someone who's only been cosmetically altered. (such as trans)

2. It enables them to be accepted in society. They can go to the beach in a bikini without people pointing and going "that's a dude!" or they can use the bathroom, gym locker-room, etc.

a. Not only is there no reason for gender segregation but
b. I don't understand why the choice of locker rooms or bathrooms is so important (last time I checked both genders use the bathroom for the same purpose, and we tend not to stare when people are doing their business) and
c. people will always think and say things about other people. Whether it is having a penis, or a massive wart on your face, your only problem is to give a damn, and that's your fault, not the penis or the wart's fault.
d. they were accepted to begin with.

3. There's a well-known medical phenomenon where people's brains and bodies mismatch. You can look up amputees and see it a lot. It's like they can sense their arm should be there and when they look it's gone. It's the same thing when a person with a female brain reaches to grab her breast but finds a hairy manly muscle there instead. You can imagine the horror when they grab other places.

And this "horror" disappears thanks to a chop and some silicone?

Thanks Wescli for the science info!!! It doesn't seem to match either gender from looking at those, so its interesting to consider what might be going on.

I think the Putamen is part of the bodies reward circuitry and plays a big role in addiction. We already know that addiction can drive behaviour. It's all very interesting as an observer. Good luck to those who are suffering!!!

It's good it's being researched because..... I need more data!!!!!!!! :pinch:

Ren, for the most part of this dicsussion, I agree with you. I am also of the opinion that emotional resiliance regardless of the bodies physical circumstances is an essential part of dealing with any kind of body dismorphic issue, but I dont think that the way in which youre conducting this arguement is actually adding any value to the discussion. And becoming more graphic and frankly, offensive does not a valid arguement make. The reality is that the "chop and some silicon" may well make all the difference in the world to someone. Not everyone is capable of putting aside the physical issues for long enough to deal with the emotional component succesfully to the point where perhaps alteration is no longer required. Not everyone is even aware that is possible. And if your average person suffering anxiety or depression has trouble accessing mental health services, then I imagine trans gendered people do to. Its all very well throwing out opinions on peoples emotional state from your lofty position as a more "enlightened" person, but it doesnt actually change a thing.

In the feminist thread you repeatedly brought up the fact that male suicides were on the increase.(though as I recal you did blame that on the breakdown in relations between men and women) I personally would be interested to see to what extent depression and suididal behaviour amoung Trans gendered people affects the over all stats, and what alternative "treatment" options are actually available. (scuttles off to research)

Oh and Abhaya Budhil, I applaude you. You have handled yourself extraordinarily well in a sensitive conversation than many others would have given up on several pages ago.

Brenna wrote: Ren, for the most part of this dicsussion, I agree with you. I am also of the opinion that emotional resiliance regardless of the bodies physical circumstances is an essential part of dealing with any kind of body dismorphic issue, but I dont think that the way in which youre conducting this arguement is actually adding any value to the discussion. And becoming more graphic and frankly, offensive does not a valid arguement make. The reality is that the "chop and some silicon" may well make all the difference in the world to someone. Not everyone is capable of putting aside the physical issues for long enough to deal with the emotional component succesfully to the point where perhaps alteration is no longer required. Not everyone is even aware that is possible. And if your average person suffering anxiety or depression has trouble accessing mental health services, then I imagine trans gendered people do to. Its all very well throwing out opinions on peoples emotional state from your lofty position as a more "enlightened" person, but it doesnt actually change a thing.

In the feminist thread you repeatedly brought up the fact that male suicides were on the increase.(though as I recal you did blame that on the breakdown in relations between men and women) I personally would be interested to see to what extent depression and suididal behaviour amoung Trans gendered people affects the over all stats, and what alternative "treatment" options are actually available. (scuttles off to research)

Oh and Abhaya Budhil, I applaude you. You have handled yourself extraordinarily well in a sensitive conversation than many others would have given up on several pages ago.

If they feel offended by it, why on earth would they do it.

ren wrote:

Brenna wrote: Ren, for the most part of this dicsussion, I agree with you. I am also of the opinion that emotional resiliance regardless of the bodies physical circumstances is an essential part of dealing with any kind of body dismorphic issue, but I dont think that the way in which youre conducting this arguement is actually adding any value to the discussion. And becoming more graphic and frankly, offensive does not a valid arguement make. The reality is that the "chop and some silicon" may well make all the difference in the world to someone. Not everyone is capable of putting aside the physical issues for long enough to deal with the emotional component succesfully to the point where perhaps alteration is no longer required. Not everyone is even aware that is possible. And if your average person suffering anxiety or depression has trouble accessing mental health services, then I imagine trans gendered people do to. Its all very well throwing out opinions on peoples emotional state from your lofty position as a more "enlightened" person, but it doesnt actually change a thing.

In the feminist thread you repeatedly brought up the fact that male suicides were on the increase.(though as I recal you did blame that on the breakdown in relations between men and women) I personally would be interested to see to what extent depression and suididal behaviour amoung Trans gendered people affects the over all stats, and what alternative "treatment" options are actually available. (scuttles off to research)

Oh and Abhaya Budhil, I applaude you. You have handled yourself extraordinarily well in a sensitive conversation than many others would have given up on several pages ago.

If they feel offended by it, why on earth would they do it.

Obviously Im having a dumb day, but I dont entirely follow...

ren has already said it himself.....he doesn't understand. I believe what has come across as his disdain is rooted in that fact. I, for one, do not understand either, though I do not disdain. I recognize that like the woman choosing abortion, its really not my place to judge. I appreciate honesty, however, and applaud ren in that regard as well as Abhaya.

Concerning the path taken in this discussion I would say at this point it is conflicting opinion, not fact. It is wise to acquiesce in circumstances were no truth can be established and instead respect that people have differing opinions. The most beneficial thing I have seen in recent posts, as far as the discussion is concerned, is the research provided. It is, however, inconclusive, only suggestive at best.

I would be interested in seeing any other research anyone might be aware of as well as testimonials from the doctors involved in establishing SRS as the primary solution, though I don't expect anyone to do my research for me.

I dont think that the way in which youre conducting this arguement is actually adding any value to the discussion. And becoming more graphic and frankly, offensive does not a valid arguement make. The reality is that the "chop and some silicon" may well make all the difference in the world to someone.

How is it offensive to trans people for me to vaguely describe certain aspects of gender reassignment surgery? They choose to do it. They know very well what they're doing. Why is it offensive?

I'd like to start by addressing the controversy over the phantom limbs. I'm going to speak from my own experience here, so other trans people could have different experiences. I wouldn't say that I have "phantom limbs" or phantom body parts of any sort. The only way I can think to describe it is that it is like when you are walking up stairs or on the sidewalk without watching where you are going and suddenly you are at the top step or you step off the sidewalk and your foot sort of plunges through the air where you expected to find solid ground. Usually when this happens, there is a brief moment of surprise, and maybe a hint of fear. Your heart might speed up, your stomach might drop, it usually throws you off balance or gives you a slightly sick feeling for a few moments. For me, being trans is like that. It is like having that sick feeling and off balance sensation all the time. It is like I am constantly expecting my body to be some way other than what it is, and I am constantly caught off guard when it is not how I expect it to be. Living with that feeling can lead to a host of other problems, and fixing that feeling helps those other problems to go away. For instance, simply by cutting my hair, buying clothes I actually wanted to wear, and living as male I became happier than I had been before. I had taken steps toward making my body the way I had always expected it to be. Now that I am on hormones, I am even happier, and I am confident that surgery will make me even happier.

I have heard trans people describe a sort of phantom limb experience after surgery. I am hoping to have top surgery next summer, and a lot of people are telling me that I will probably have a phantom chest for a while until I get used to it. Unlike the distress that this might cause an amputee, phantom body parts like this are actually good experiences for everyone I've talked to. They described it as being like the first time they cut all of their hair off. In the shower, they would be washing their hair and would have a moment of shock as they found that their hair was shorter than it had been. They were used to washing a lot of hair, and now they had hardly any. While this was a shock, it was a good one. I know what that felt like for me, and it was a sort of warm glow that I finally had a hairstyle I liked. People who have had top surgery have told me they experienced the same thing as they were getting used to their new chest. It was a good feeling, but it was certainly different.

Ren, you said that people tend not to stare while others are doing their business. While you personally might not have a problem with trans people in bathrooms, it is still very unsafe for trans people to use public restrooms. I have never used a restroom while someone else was in there without being aggressively questioned. I've had security called on me. This is mild. Many people face harassment or actual physical violence from using the restroom. Many trans people choose to wait until they can find a family restroom that is gender neutral rather than put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation. This can often lead to bladder infections and UTIs.
Yes, people will always say things about other people. The difference is that trans people are attacked, raped, and murdered for being trans. I can't say I've ever heard of someone being attacked, raped, or murdered for having a wart on their face.
Trans people are not accepted in society. If they were there wouldn't be so much violence against them, so many homeless trans people, so many trans people losing their jobs. They wouldn't be constantly mocked, harassed, threatened, and faced with police brutality and emergency responders who refused to give them life saving care. They wouldn't have to risk losing their religion, friends, and family to come out.
Yes, the horror disappears after surgery (in most cases). You might be of the opinion that surgery is pointless and does not work, but the overwhelming majority of people who have had SRS would disagree with you. They say that their quality of life was greatly improved, and continued to be so, after surgery. I'm definitely going to have to take their first hand narratives to be proof enough for me that SRS works.

Brenna, I understand your point about therapy being an option. It is one that many people who are not trans agree with. However, therapists who work with trans people and trans people themselves agree that, while surgery may temporarily relieve some of the anxiety and stress over transitioning, it is not a longterm solution. I was in therapy for a good portion of my life, but I never made any progress. I tried different therapists for years, ever since I was 9, but I just could not feel better. When I found out about SRS and realized that there were actual options for me and other people who felt the same way I did, things changed. Just starting a social transition made me feel so much better, and the start of my medical transition made things even better. My friends and family noticed a huge change in how happy I have become and how much more confident and outgoing I am now that I've begun to transition. This isn't to say therapy won't work for anyone. There are plenty of trans people who don't suffer from much sex dysphoria. Therapy could be useful to some of them. However, the majority of trans people who suffer from very strong sex dysphoria do need surgery. Therapy just will never make them happy. That is why the standard of care for trans people is surgery and hormones (after a period of therapy to make sure this is the right choice and that it is necessary).

Ren, I don't think your comments were inherently offensive to trans people (although certainly there are trans people who would disagree with me). I think that it is maybe a bit crude and rough to describe it that way. Someone choosing to have a surgery for themselves is not necessarily opening themselves up to criticism. Also, if you would not describe someone else's genitals in a crude way like that, then why would you do it to trans people? They are no less worthy of the same respect you would give someone else going through a surgery. On the other hand, if that's just how you like to describe things and it has nothing to do with the person being trans, then I would say it definitely wouldn't be offensive to trans people. Describing genitals in that way might just be offensive in general to some people. It certainly isn't the socially accepted way to talk about genitals. Since you have already described the procedure in a few disdainful terms, perhaps you could switch to just calling it a phalloplasty. That is, after all, what it is called, and "phalloplasty" certainly takes up less space than "a sack of air attached to a groin" (paraphrasing there because I can't see your exact words from this screen).

As far as people wanting more research or more conclusive research, the sad thing is that, since being transgender is so stigmatized in society, most post-op trans people want to just move on with their lives while most pre-op trans people are having a hard enough time just handling their daily lives as it is. They often are not willing to come forward for studies, which makes it difficult to draw any real conclusions about anything.

Sorry about the book there. Feel free to find the parts that talk about whatever it is you were personally addressing. I just got home from work, so I wasn't able to really respond to everything I wanted to as it was unfolding.