Trans

ren, I can't prove this to the satisfaction of your preconceptions, you've already admitted to this fact. I also can't share with you in any tangible way my own experience so that you would understand what we're talking about in a real sense. That is to say I can't beam my sensations into your head. I can tell you that gender dysphoria manifests as early as gender awareness exists in children, before they've even had opportunity for such level of indoctrination as you suggest, however, ultimately, what this comes down to and the reason I continue debating even after you made the statement that you would be unconvinced whatever I said, is I'm unsure why you are unwilling to admit that since you have no direct experience with gender dysphoria/gender identity problems and you are not an expert in the field that you should defer to the assessment of those bodies which exist to study such topics (the AMA, WHO, APA, WPATH, etc).

Possibly, ren is trying to understand...

But without the feeling, and inner turmoil-y stuff...

Its one of those, "you can never understand"s...

Tell me what it is like to be a man, to be a woman...

Well as a man, I can stand to pee, I shave my face, I...

oh, what it feels like to be a man, not what a man can do...

I can not tell you what it is like to be me, either... Ya kinda just gotta live it to comprehend...

But, it shouldnt stop someone who is curious from discussing, nor those with the issue from explaining...

Ok, carry on...

People who undergo SRS are usually much happier as a result. It seems to me that SRS is working.

Why do they kill themselves so much then, if they're so damn happy? Why is it that when researchers try to track down those supposedly happy people, they struggle?

ren, I can't prove this to the satisfaction of your preconceptions, you've already admitted to this fact. I also can't share with you in any tangible way my own experience so that you would understand what we're talking about in a real sense. That is to say I can't beam my sensations into your head. I can tell you that gender dysphoria manifests as early as gender awareness exists in children, before they've even had opportunity for such level of indoctrination as you suggest, however, ultimately, what this comes down to and the reason I continue debating even after you made the statement that you would be unconvinced whatever I said, is I'm unsure why you are unwilling to admit that since you have no direct experience with gender dysphoria/gender identity problems and you are not an expert in the field that you should defer to the assessment of those bodies which exist to study such topics (the AMA, WHO, APA, WPATH, etc).

What I said is neither of us would be convinced any other way. You clearly believe srs to be effective, and I don't. I made a couple of suggestions on how my mind could be changed, you did not.

You see, I'm not obsessed with the idea that srs is ineffective. What I ask is for proof that it is a clinically effective treatment. I am just as opposed to homoeopathy for the same reasons as srs. If my resources are going to be spent, I want them spent wisely, not as dictated by fashion.

you have no direct experience with gender dysphoria/gender identity problems

You have no experience with the lack of sex dysphoria. Therefore why would you know anything about how to feel good in your own skin?

ren wrote: Why do they kill themselves so much then, if they're so damn happy? Why is it that when researchers try to track down those supposedly happy people, they struggle?

People still kill themselves for a number of reasons. Maybe they were just depressed in general on top of their sex dysphoria. Maybe their SRS made them happier in their own skin and did exactly what they expected it to do, but they couldn't handle the pressures of society or of losing their friends and family.

It can often be difficult to keep post-op trans people interested in studies that they originally agreed to participate in because many want nothing to do with trans issues or the trans community after they reach the level of transition they are planning to reach. They want to put it all behind them and move on with their lives.

ren wrote: What I said is neither of us would be convinced any other way. You clearly believe srs to be effective, and I don't. I made a couple of suggestions on how my mind could be changed, you did not.

You see, I'm not obsessed with the idea that srs is ineffective. What I ask is for proof that it is a clinically effective treatment. I am just as opposed to homoeopathy for the same reasons as srs. If my resources are going to be spent, I want them spent wisely, not as dictated by fashion.

I provided you with the WPATH documents which reference more than 10 studies over 30 years showing the efficacy of srs. You have countered with one dissenting opinion and behave as though that one opinion piece counters everything. If significant evidence ever came forward to show it was not effective I would be receptive, however, no such research exists and the research that does exist happens to coincide with my own personal subjective experience as well.

You have no experience with the lack of sex dysphoria. Therefore why would you know anything about how to feel good in your own skin?

Quite the contrary, other than a bit of remaining disphoria over my own "situation" I'm very comfortable in my own skin as a woman. It was while presenting as male and lieing about who I was that I experienced suicidal depression due to my disphoria. Since that time I've been immensely better. Better is however relative and there's just a bit further to go.

My opinion:

First, in most NOT all " T R U E, " transgender cases the patterns of thought can be traced all the way back to childhood.

Second, I would say most who are transgender would rather have been normal, than have had thoughts, about wishing to be the other sex.

Third, Those who are transgender can not think otherwise. Just as one who is straight can not think otherwise. Yeah you can imagine, or consider for a short time, but your predominant thought patterns are set and only a paradigm shift will change them.

I provided you with the WPATH documents which reference more than 10 studies over 30 years showing the efficacy of srs.

Where?

Red Lila wrote: Ren WPATH is an organization which was created to establish standards of care for the treatment of gender dysphoria (Gender Identity Disorder at the time) worldwide because previously, when surgery and HRT were unregulated and up to the individual therapist and doctor satisfaction rates were in the low 70%-80% range back in 1979. Since then they've placed recommended controls in the availability of these treatments based off the results of multiple studies over many years. They have collected a wide body of research both for and against gender transition and assessed that while not perfect for everyone it is very effective for those that need it. Up to and including surgery. I'll link the whole document of their most recent standard's of care because its heavily bibliographed, referencing all the studies directly as opposed to just opinion pieces about them. However, since the current discussion is specifically about SRS I'll give you page numbers within the document to review.

http://www.wpath.org/documents/IJT%20SOC,%20V7.pdf
Section XI: Surgery starting on p199
Appendix D (p229) in its entirety.
The bibliography also has a list of all referenced studies with full information if you wish to look them up individually.
Also relavent to the discussion as a whole but not the SRS portion:
Section III: The difference between gender nonconformity and gender dysphoria (p168)
Section IV: Epidimiologic Considerations (p169)

Also as far as gender roles being hard coded, no serious researcher into gender dysphoria believes this and I don't know any trans people who do either. The gender roles/expression we take on are the external societal reflection of our internal sense of self/gender identity and as such are influenced by culture unlike the gender identity itself.

.....

Ok maybe It is just me or did this loose it's path here?

I mean Excellent information. Some I did and didn't know.

For my two cents worth... There are some insurance companies that cover it (I think there are 2 in minnesota anyways) and some that don't.

I can understand Ren's irritation that some things shouldn't be covered as there is a rash of insurance fraud reported each year. I would want my resources to be spent with some common sense and protection as well.

However, that is why there are many different kinds of insurance... that cover different things. Some cover just the basics, other cover more and more and more and more.

Trying to argue whether this is a real condition or not... is well... pointless. To people who have it... it is very real... to people that don't.... it may not be. If there is a treatment... hoorayyyyy! Lets try to cover that.

I think the conversation turned that way because ren is arguing based on being in the UK and care being handled by the NHS. Here in the US its less an issue, though here we have the problem I mentioned that the procedures themselves are covered for other conditions but are specifically prohibited for gender dysphoria diagnosis. The Affordable Care Act when it goes in completely at the end of this year makes that illegal to do which is good but the ACA is like a gift-wrapped present to the insurance companies and far from perfect.