Trans

ren wrote: You can claim all you want to be a woman trapped in a woman's body, no amount of insurance money or surgery is going to change that.

I confess!! Im a woman trapped in a womans body

I agree with Ren and I think this thread is one of those ones where you have to agree to disagree because neither side will back down.

How has transgender become the topic of conversation from a debate about feminism?

Perhaps a separate topic should be started for it?

Either way you can argue the topic from both POV's till the end of the earth.

Eventually it'll turn personal such as "X is ignorant because they don't agree with me" etc.

But I agree with Ren on the basis of Feminism = Women > Men from my personal experience in the UK.

Like I said before, we aren't talking about someone who is just a bit unhappy with the size of their nose and has some money to throw around. We are talking about people who are often so desperate they will risk death to get these surgeries in any way they can. There are young children, children who are too young to even have a real concept of gender, who know there is something wrong with their genitals and try to cut them off. It is rarely related to gender roles in society. It is almost always entirely related to the sexed parts of the body, and can emerge as a problem before children have even been taught about their bodies. If it emerges that young, how can it be influenced by society? It is not related to societal pressures.

It isn't an elective surgery. It is the only way for transgender people to really be happy. It is often suicide prevention. It is also the only way for transgender people to fully function in society in many cases.

Some insurance companies do cover penis enlargements, and many insurance companies cover chest reductions for men with gynecomastia. Those are more elective than SRS, which is the only known way to combat sex dysphoria.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Like I said before, we aren't talking about someone who is just a bit unhappy with the size of their nose and has some money to throw around. We are talking about people who are often so desperate they will risk death to get these surgeries in any way they can. There are young children, children who are too young to even have a real concept of gender, who know there is something wrong with their genitals and try to cut them off. It is rarely related to gender roles in society. It is almost always entirely related to the sexed parts of the body, and can emerge as a problem before children have even been taught about their bodies. If it emerges that young, how can it be influenced by society? It is not related to societal pressures.

It isn't an elective surgery. It is the only way for transgender people to really be happy. It is often suicide prevention. It is also the only way for transgender people to fully function in society in many cases.

Some insurance companies do cover penis enlargements, and many insurance companies cover chest reductions for men with gynecomastia. Those are more elective than SRS, which is the only known way to combat sex dysphoria.

And there are people who dislike other parts of their bodies and chop em off too. Or don't like anything about their body at all. And that insurance company that covers penis enlargement? I want to see it.

How has transgender become the topic of conversation from a debate about feminism?

Abhaya doesn't like being male.

[/quote]Abhaya doesn't like being male.[/quote]

Not sure where you got that from. I am currently transitioning to be legally male. Perhaps you were just confused about which way I was transitioning and you meant to say "Abhaya doesn't like being female." In that case, I do have to point out that your comments are becoming increasingly transphobic. I understand why some people don't think SRS should be covered by insurance. We might have to agree to disagree on that one. However, things like the comment above and calling sex dysphoria "petty" are just outright transphobia. There is no way around it. I'm not sure if you are transphobic or not, but your comments are definitely transphobic.

[/quote]Jedi believe in a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.[/quote]

Does this not include believing that we should all be treated with respect on an individual level as well? Does this include believing that we should accept, embrace, and celebrate such differences without passing judgement on those who differ from us in these areas? And is gender identity included or not in this? What is the temple's official stance on transgender people? Because I am sensing a definite vibe of transphobia on this thread, whether intended or not. (Those are actual questions that I don't know the answer to and would like clarification on. I am not asking them rhetorically. I am genuinely interested in the answers.)

Personally I think this thread is going too far. Neither Ren nor Abhaya are saying things the way they should be said and things are getting personal. Neither side can win this like has already been said, you are both correct and you are both wrong. If this topic really matters that much to both of you maybe you could do more research and settle things a little more civilly. Ren, it is appalling that you can't handle this a bit more maturely. There have been times where I have looked up to you with a lot of respect but this is definitely not one of them. That isn't to say I completely disagree with you, it is simply to say I believe you handled things poorly here.

May the Force be with you,
Rai

I didn't want to be involved in this discussion because I don't have near enough info to make an educated comment, but I did want to say that I don't believe this site is transphobic.

I think it's more a problem of a heated debate. Emotions get wrapped up and sometimes hurtful things are said.

But yeah, Abhaya, please don't feel that TOTJO is transphobic. There are people of all sorts here and we welcome all. If you ever feel unwelcome please shoot me a pm.

Thank you, Wendaline.

Rai, I agree with you that this has gone too far. Thank you for stepping in. I am trying my best to keep things civil, but I do think things are getting too personal.

I would still enjoy answers to the questions I asked in my last post, but I will no longer be responding on this thread. I think this is something I need to take a step back from.

Ren, I greatly enjoyed our discussion about feminism.

To finish off Wendalines point we actually have a couple of transgenders on the site...of all different ranks.

Abhaya Budhil wrote:

Jedi believe in a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.

Does this not include believing that we should all be treated with respect on an individual level as well? Does this include believing that we should accept, embrace, and celebrate such differences without passing judgement on those who differ from us in these areas? And is gender identity included or not in this? What is the temple's official stance on transgender people? Because I am sensing a definite vibe of transphobia on this thread, whether intended or not. (Those are actual questions that I don't know the answer to and would like clarification on. I am not asking them rhetorically. I am genuinely interested in the answers.)[/quote]

The official stance is, "TOTJO doesnt care if a person is trans"...

And, neither does ren...

I believe his comments are aimed at the insurance policies, or the state, paying for this surgery...

I can see where mentally, it might help someone...

I dont know, I dont know enough about this to comment much further...