Trans

Raikoutenshi wrote: You seem to have proven the point of those you have gone against Jestor. Shaving, Bikini Wax, Haircut etc. we pay for all of these ourselves. They do indeed make us feel good, but for shallow reasons, and I completely accept this fact and embrace it. The people I want to be around are the ones who could go without those things and still be their confident selves, but if you can indulge yourself then why not? I'm still me when i haven't showered, or had a haircut recently, or shaved or kept my appearance up at all, and it doesn't make me psychologically ill because I have a sound mind. Those with a calm mind don't need surgery to change who they are, though they may want it. If you can gather the resources and pay for everything yourself then more power to you and I am happy for you, if you cannot then you must accept this and not expect someone to simply give you what you yearn for. It should be an option for those who want it, but not an obligation for the rest of us to pay for.

My point was not "who should pay"...

But rather there are reasons besides shallowness to seek the surgery...

I don't consider my shaving, bathing and personal grooming as conceited, but rather hygiene...

Whereas the srs isnt a matter of hygiene, but rather a search for a better "me" (the person looking for the surgery...

As far as who is to pay, I believe I am the first post (if not here, then in the other thread) talking about who should pay...

And, I think I've changed my stance...

IF insurance companies allow some surgeries, enlargements and whatever, this ought to be an option, an add-on policy or something...

I can choose options on my health plan, my dental plan, and my vision plan.... And I do cover the cost of my policy...

Its like my cable plan, to get the channels I want, I have to purchase a plan that contains what I want....

Another thing to consider here would be : are we using the right terms ? Although I'm not quite sure (and like it that way) where I stand on this, given the balance between natural and social 'rights', we could perceive hygiène in terms of the state of nature as balanced with the social contract.

Personally, I do not feel that we are such brutish animals in the natural state. It could even be argued that sudsing ourelves up everyday and topping it off with a dose of Dior is possibly worse for us hygiène-wise as never bathing at all. It has however become social convention - much as not bathing at all and just covering it all up with parfum was in the 17th century royal court. Of course, at that time, the closest one could get to 'trans' was cross-dressing, which was fairly common. So, as such, we should be careful about what we consider "shallow".

Shallow and profound are as mutually arising as is any duality. No philosophical high-ground can be won with that ...

Much of what we're debating in this thread has to do with the social contract ; it is entirely de-ontological for it is examined only in the external, "higher", conception of what may be - not for the nature of things in and of themselves. We are really talking about how we fit into society. And society has a lot of conditions to it that are not so well conform to 'rights'. So, what would that look like were that not the case ?

It goes a bit beyond shaving and showering, really. We do that for hygiène, yes, certainly. But that is not the only reason why we do it. We do it to be more easily accepted by others. As a pseudo-civilisation, we have replaced, to a large extent, our natural pheromones with the Dior (metonymy to be sure). Our natural odours are not completely forgotten, but we tend to dress them as we do our bodies. And the repugnance we (maybe) feel at the natural scent is similar to that we (maybe) feel about nudity. In and of itself, it is not revolting - that is socially conditioned behaviour.

With regard to being trans-gendered. I'm not qualified to say one way or the other how valid studies in that area are. The SRS surgery seems like a treatment for a symptom and not addressing the underlying disorder(s). What genetic studies and commissioned by whom (that second part is important to keep us from plunging into the "expert account" fallacy) have been done to show that this is a serious medical condition and not simply a variation of one or more other pathologies ? Agreed, there may be many trans-gendered persons living and must have been all through human evolution. Yet, would this be a true disorder, or is there an evolutionary niche being filled there ?

Needless to say, 100 000 years ago, no one was having an SRS. Did they cut of their genitalia ? They weren't showering daily and dousing themselves with J-P Gaultier (just to change from Dior) either. Social contracts are high pressure, but they are quite negotiable too.

Alexandre, therapists who deal with transgender patients agree that the standard of care for transgender people is SRS. People have tried therapy and medication, but the only true lasting cure for most transgender people is SRS. Also, my therapist told me there have been studies done that suggest transgender people have brain structures that are more similar to the gender they feel they are as opposed to their assigned sex. I haven't actually seen the studies, I only heard about them from her, so I don't have much information. However, a lot of people are starting to think this is a medical problem, not a psychological problem, and that this explains why the only solution that works is a medical solution. The studies are not enough to make definite statements about this, but people (and especially trained medical and mental health providers) are definitely starting to lean in that direction until more research can show us more.

With regard to happiness: I was at a trans health conference this past weekend, so I met a lot of trans people, pre-op, non-op, post-op. I did not meet a single post-op person who did not say their quality of life had greatly improved since having surgery and who did not say they were much happier now than they had been before. These included people who had surgery 6 months ago, 2 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago... their statements about their happiness were all the same. This is how it is for the majority of transgender people. No, they aren't happy all the time, but who is? The point is that their body was no longer the source of their discomfort. The surgeries worked to make them feel better.

The difference between body dysmorphia and sex dysphoria is hat dysmorphia involves seeing your body and believing it looks different than it actually does. Perhaps you think your breasts are tiny when they are actually an average size. Maybe you think you're way too fat when you're actually absolutely tiny. Sex dysphoria involves looking at your body, seeing it as it is, and feeling that it does not belong to you. So while people with body dysmorphia may eventually learn to see their bodies as they truly are and accept them, people with sex dysphoria already see their bodies as they truly are.

I agree with Jestor on his last point about health insurance. Why should it not be an option on health insurance? If you don't want to pay for it, don't get that on your plan. Problem solved.

I think the problem with the posts on this thread is that none of you are transgender, so you can't possibly understand what it feels like. It is not at all the same thing as not liking your weight, being hairy, etc. These comparisons just further show that you truly do not understand (and honestly most people who are not trans never understand, but they learn to accept it and support trans people through whatever decisions they make).

I think the thing that has shocked me most out of this thread is not how little people know about what it means to be transgender (that I am used to). It is how quick people are to pass judgement on others (calling them shallow and selfish and saying their only treatment option is unnecessary) for something you don't understand.

You can't possibly know what being us feels like or how it compares either....

I do know what it feels like to think your hair looks bad, to think your nose is too big, and other things that most people think about themselves. Do I know exactly what your experience is? No, of course not. But I'm also not judging anyone for wanting to change their appearance, and I haven't tried to belittle anyone's experience by comparing it to something else. I have only said that, while those problems are real, they do not stem from the same source as sex dysphoria.

ren wrote: You can't possibly know what being us feels like or how it compares either....

I have pondered, many times, what it would be like to be someone else. You know, how they might feel, why, what goes through someone’s head, why they might feel it… I try not to think “what would I do or how would I feel” but rather really understand others and their emotions and emotional state. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful, but I have tried.

I don’t think anyone can really “know” what it is like to be another. We can try, but there are so many things unique to the individual that actually knowing would just be… hard! I think we can empathies, and show compassion, but I don’t know that we can ever truly understand or really know.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try though. I think that trying lets us gain some perspective that we might not have had otherwise.

Rather we try to understand some one completely different from ourselves or someone similar, I just don’t see how we could do it unless we were able to trade life experiences. Step out of our body and into theirs with the entire myriad of experience from birth till that moment with no awareness of who we are or the experiences of our lives to interfere with the new experience.

If that makes any sense? :huh:

Abhaya Budhil wrote: I think the problem with the posts on this thread is that none of you are transgender, so you can't possibly understand what it feels like.

How do you know who is transgender and who is not? Do you have some kind of Trandar? I used to believe I had transgender issues but that was resolved when I got my head straight, I even joined TOTJO the first time as a "transgender" but after getting some clarity on my self and clearing my head of issues I came to a realization I wouldn't be happy if I had gone through with it and it would have been a mistake. I have met loads of transgender folk from all ages and races and I can honestly say the majority NOT ALL have had some major psychological issues the major one being depression.

Metsu, I can tell that nobody on who has been commenting on this thread is trans because of the lack of understanding about what it means to be trans. A trans person would know what it felt like, so they wouldn't be taking guesses like the people commenting here are. No, I don't have "transdar." But if you just read the comments it is pretty easy to figure out that the people on this thread are not trans.

It is lucky for you that you found out you were not truly transgender. It is a hard path to be forced down. However, your experience does not invalidate anyone else's experience. Yes, for some people identifying as transgender turns out to be a phase. Just as identifying as homosexual or bisexual is sometimes a phase. That does not mean there are no homosexual, bisexual, or trans people. It just means that some people who are not actually in those categories explore a bit when they are figuring themselves out. That's absolutely fine. I'm glad you did not end up transitioning before you realized that was not your true identity. Many people jump into this too fast while they are still trying to figure things out, and they often end up with transition regret. However, the majority of people who transition are truly trans, and their lives are improved by the transition.

Yes, trans people tend to be depressed. However, it is not a case of "I am depressed, so now I will be trans and if I cure my depression I will stop being trans." It is a case of "I am trans, and my sex dysphoria combined with society's view of me and the fact that I have likely lost my religion, friends, and family is making me depressed. If I have a sex change I will eliminate my sex dysphoria, which will make me, if not entirely happy, at least more happy than I was." The depression is a symptom of transgenderism, not the cause of it.

Finally, thinking you might have been transgender at one time does not mean you know what it is like to be transgender. You were never actually trans (by your own account). You simply questioned your gender and thought you might be trans. You know what it is like to think you might be trans, but you do not know what it is like to actually be trans. I thought at one point that I might be bisexual. I have since come to the realization that I am straight. I do not know what it is like to be bisexual because I have never been bisexual. I only know what it is like to question my sexuality. It's the same scenario with a different facet of identity.

I hope that cleared things up a bit.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Finally, thinking you might have been transgender at one time does not mean you know what it is like to be transgender.

My point was you can't presume you know all the facts about everyone here, as with everything it's completely subjective and down to an individual case, Ren is not the best person to do negotiations as he does not express himself in the best way.

Knowing Ren he is most likely but not certainly trying to put the point across that the only reason Transgender's feel the way they do about it is because of some form of body image issues (of which can also be psychological) and they should instead just get "over" it and accept they are what they are.

Ren is also not a representative of the WHOLE of TOTJO I think what's happening here is it's a very personal issue to you so emotions are running high and there's a misconception of the actual words, if we spoke verbally this whole thing would have gone down very differently because if I write "I hate you" and you read it, you would not hear the tone of my voice to tell if I was joking or not and that is what has happened here, a misunderstanding completely.

ToTJO has no official status on transgender but IF it did I am certain it would be that there is nothing wrong with it in one single iota.

Nobody in this debate is wrong but everybody is entitled to their opinion like with the Feminism thread it is also one of the things people will have to agree to disagree as neither party is wrong they just have different view points.

Here are a few facts to help our greater understanding:
1. Recent advancements in MRIs can detect people with transgender brains and soon(hopefully) will be able to identify it as early as age 2-3 yrs.
2. Transgenderism is rooted in physiology of the brain, not psychology.
3. Although the cause is not defined, I suspect that every woman on the planet taking birth control and peeing it out into the water supply may have something to do with this. Same goes for male hormones.
4. Every trans person I've talked to says the same thing: "I got an accident down there". Which means their sex and gender were mixed up through environmental exposure at some point in time.
5. SRS surgery candidates must live and dress as a woman/man for a year or so and take hormones and look like a woman/man and all that BEFORE they can get the irreversible sex change.

So I think SRS surgery should be covered. It's an accidental thing that is medical in nature and rooted in physiology and can be fixed with a simple set of surgeries. I know there are lots of people who get rejected for surgery for many reasons but the ones that qualify really are trans and we, as a society, have the responsibility to pay for it because we exposed them or their mothers to environmental contaminants that mixed their sex and gender up wrongly.