So i guess everyone is leaving..?

Tellahane wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: I've been trying to help find a resolution. My posting here has been irregular since things started to get tense, and I apologize for that. It's just that usually, by the time I get home from work, I'm over talking about it due to oversaturation of the subject in my faceholes.

How can I help?

I think a lot of effort is being put into trying to find a resolution, but hot heads on both sides is making it a long and drawn out debate. Good time to study and learn about patience

And that is helpful for the new members how?

I'll sum it up. Some knights want to take over the management of The Order. I'd like to retire. I always wanted this place to get to a point where it ran fine without me or any other key person. This is easier said than done.

Nami wrote: That's the thing, that's what everyone is doing.. either that or leaving. Someone needs to f'n tell us what's going on. People have said that this place is a sinking ship. Some people have even said this place is gonna close down. We don't know anything except what the bitter and the loudmouths have said. There has been absolutely nothing official to tell anything. Being in the dark is not the answer. Gossip is not the answer. This isn't just making Knights leave. This is pushing away new members that only want to grow spiritually. That, in my belief, is what each and every one of you should try to prevent.. but it's not happening. You're in your own little world, and eff the rest of us.

It's people making comments like a "sinking ship" and putting out false gossip that is a cause of a lot of the problems. If anything were not effing the rest of you because this is a huge debate about how we take care of you, how we take care of the temple, and who should be the ones doing it, in essence were all having debates about how to best look after the members and apprentices and so on.

Tellahane wrote: It's people making comments like a "sinking ship" and putting out false gossip that is a cause of a lot of the problems. If anything were not effing the rest of you because this is a huge debate about how we take care of you, how we take care of the temple, and who should be the ones doing it, in essence were all having debates about how to best look after the members and apprentices and so on.

Actually, it's comments like this, saying that we don't need to know anything is making things worse.

Nami wrote:

Tellahane wrote: It's people making comments like a "sinking ship" and putting out false gossip that is a cause of a lot of the problems. If anything were not effing the rest of you because this is a huge debate about how we take care of you, how we take care of the temple, and who should be the ones doing it, in essence were all having debates about how to best look after the members and apprentices and so on.

Actually, it's comments like this, saying that we don't need to know anything is making things worse.

I never said you don't need to know, but some darker sides are showing from the exhaustion and you don't need to be subjected to that part of it. When decisions become final you will be filled in with the full chunk, just as even I don't know fully what all is going on, just have a better idea then some. It is in our doctrine to protect and defend, that's whats being done.

Actually it's very easily done, and it seems to me as though the process is being made complicated for no reason at all. You say "I'm retiring, the council is in charge" and you let them take over. Let them sort out the politics of it all after that point. Why be concerned with what things will be post-retirement, if your plan is to let others run it all any way? After all, the point of retirement is... to walk away. And I'll be blunt, this continuing to ban people who disagree with you is a bit irrational if your intent is to retire anyway.

Just my thoughts. At this point I'm merely hoping for, though not currently seeing, a peaceful solution to everything's that's going on. I hope I'm wrong. I hope that this resolves in a way that leaves TOTJO running well, stronger, than it is now. But I do still think you're over-complicating the matter.

Avalonslight wrote: Actually it's very easily done, and it seems to me as though the process is being made complicated for no reason at all. You say "I'm retiring, the council is in charge" and you let them take over. Let them sort out the politics of it all after that point. Why be concerned with what things will be post-retirement, if your plan is to let others run it all any way? After all, the point of retirement is... to walk away. And I'll be blunt, this continuing to ban people who disagree with you is a bit irrational if your intent is to retire anyway.

Just my thoughts. At this point I'm merely hoping for, though not currently seeing, a peaceful solution to everything's that's going on. I hope I'm wrong. I hope that this resolves in a way that leaves TOTJO running well, stronger, than it is now. But I do still think you're over-complicating the matter.

There is a difference between peacefully disagree and being abrasive about it.

Tellahane wrote: I never said you don't need to know, but some darker sides are showing from the exhaustion and you don't need to be subjected to that part of it. When decisions become final you will be filled in with the full chunk, just as even I don't know fully what all is going on, just have a better idea then some. It is in our doctrine to protect and defend, that's whats being done.

Being neglected isn't protecting and defending us. It's mistreatment.

Nami wrote:

Tellahane wrote: I never said you don't need to know, but some darker sides are showing from the exhaustion and you don't need to be subjected to that part of it. When decisions become final you will be filled in with the full chunk, just as even I don't know fully what all is going on, just have a better idea then some. It is in our doctrine to protect and defend, that's whats being done.

Being neglected isn't protecting and defending us. It's mistreatment.

In what way are you feeling neglected specifically. What need of yours is not being met?

Tellahane wrote: I never said you don't need to know, but some darker sides are showing from the exhaustion and you don't need to be subjected to that part of it. When decisions become final you will be filled in with the full chunk, just as even I don't know fully what all is going on, just have a better idea then some. It is in our doctrine to protect and defend, that's whats being done.

For all our talk about needing more transparency, this is a really opaque answer.

I made a new thread on the topic for anyone still interested.

Tella, you and I aren't going to agree on the point of banning people over disagreements, so let's not bother with trying to pretend like we will. It'll make both our lives easier, I promise.

I stand by my statement. Banning people over disagreements - however they're presented - isn't appropriate at this juncture. It's just my opinion, my two cents. Feel free to have your own, but there's no need to comment on mine.

steamboat28 wrote:

Tellahane wrote: I never said you don't need to know, but some darker sides are showing from the exhaustion and you don't need to be subjected to that part of it. When decisions become final you will be filled in with the full chunk, just as even I don't know fully what all is going on, just have a better idea then some. It is in our doctrine to protect and defend, that's whats being done.

For all our talk about needing more transparency, this is a really opaque answer.

I made a new thread on the topic for anyone still interested.

Since I'm not included the knights chat where this is happening it's not like I can give a better answer steam, that's as detailed as what I know =p

Tellahane wrote: In what way are you feeling neglected specifically. What need of yours is not being met?

Well, we're left in the dark having to fend for ourselves. We are led to believe this place is going up in flames. This is supposed to be a church, a sanctuary. Right now, it's not. The new members aren't being talked to or helped. The novices aren't getting any help. Our spiritual needs aren't being met. All we've been told to do is shut up and wait. How are we supposed to be patient when we've been given no reason to have faith?

Tellahane wrote: Since I'm not included the knights chat where this is happening it's not like I can give a better answer steam, that's as detailed as what I know =p

PRECISELY!

Avalonslight wrote: Tella, you and I aren't going to agree on the point of banning people over disagreements, so let's not bother with trying to pretend like we will. It'll make both our lives easier, I promise.

I stand by my statement. Banning people over disagreements - however they're presented - isn't appropriate at this juncture. It's just my opinion, my two cents. Feel free to have your own, but there's no need to comment on mine.

I think that's because we disagree that its a ban on a disagreement, you believe its not appropriate to ban when someone disagrees, I feel that its appropriate when someone does it in a verbally offensive matter, not when they disagree peacefully. I agree they shouldn't be banned if they disagree peacefully.

Nami wrote:

Tellahane wrote: In what way are you feeling neglected specifically. What need of yours is not being met?

Well, we're left in the dark having to fend for ourselves. We are led to believe this place is going up in flames. This is supposed to be a church, a sanctuary. Right now, it's not. The new members aren't being talked to or helped. The novices aren't getting any help. Our spiritual needs aren't being met. All we've been told to do is shut up and wait. How are we supposed to be patient when we've been given no reason to have faith?

1. Stop listening to the rumors gossip is bad for your health in general no matter where you go.
2. The IP support team has never stopped working during this process if you need help with the IP I would be more then happy to assist you
3. Rosalyn and others have repeatedly offered their support of your spiritual needs in the last week or so I'm not sure again what needs aren't being met?

Nami and any other new comers,

If you have any questions, my skype and my email are in my signature. I will help as much as I can, based on the information which I have. And I'll do it as many times as anyone needs. I'm just an apprentice. I won't be able to provide all the answers. But I will do what I can.

Avalonslight wrote: Nami and any other new comers,

If you have any questions, my skype and my email are in my signature. I will help as much as I can, based on the information which I have. And I'll do it as many times as anyone needs. I'm just an apprentice. I won't be able to provide all the answers. But I will do what I can.

^ This. My contact information is in my profile. You can reach me here via pm, facebook, skype, whatever. I'm here to help.

Tellahane wrote: 1. Stop listening to the rumors gossip is bad for your health in general no matter where you go.
2. The IP support team has never stopped working during this process if you need help with the IP I would be more then happy to assist you
3. Rosalyn and others have repeatedly offered their support of your spiritual needs in the last week or so I'm not sure again what needs aren't being met?

Right, when I pm people and I don't get responses, my needs aren't being met.

I'm -not- listening to gossip. I'm saying that's literally all we have to go on.

And your list is very patronizing.

I don't want to totally derail this thread, but as a new person, I just wanted to quickly say I can echo most of what Nami has said. I may be having slightly different emotional responses to it all, but I can attest to there being lots of times what we're hearing as new people amounts to crickets chirping.

The only person who has done any direct, unsolicited, "Hey, you're new!" outreach to me at all is Brick. (Thank you, Brick!)

One person.

One.

Anyone else that I've talked to on here is because I made a point of hanging out in chat and getting to know people (I mean, other than a few replies to forum posts which were mostly people saying hi to my intro post). Everyone I met that way has certainly been friendly enough and several have been more than happy to talk to me about stuff and let me take up quite a bit of their time. I appreciate that, and I'm definitely not knocking those people like Steam and Ava who've been open to me bugging them a ton. Much love.

But the point is, if I wasn't much for hanging out in live chat and didn't make that extra effort? I'd have heard from...Brick..and no one else.

I'm not trying to say that's good/bad/whatever or I need more babysitting or look at me look at me or something. I'm just saying people need to understand that's how little direct outreach newbies are actually getting right now.

*EDIT* To be clear, by direct, unsolicited, I mean someone coming to me without me asking first by sending me a PM or messaging directly in some other way like, "Hi, welcome, here's what's going on." I don't mean someone made a forum post saying, "Message me if you have questions."