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A Thread About the Recent Troubles

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21 Aug 2017 05:08 - 21 Aug 2017 05:08 #298888 by steamboat28
In an effort to provide newer members with some context as to what is happening outside of their view, I'm going to attempt to share as much information as I can with you all.

This place has had troubles and upsets before, and it will happen again. Like Jestor used to say, we're practicing Jedi, not perfect ones. We're all human, and we all make mistakes. This is vital to understanding what is currently happening in the Temple.

The road that has led us to this particular juncture starts a long time ago, when it was stated that perhaps Knights should have a more active role in the day-to-day affairs. Fast-forward to a few weeks ago, when an Advisory Council was announced to help make decisions for TOTJO. Some people thought the experience would be different than it turned out to be, and this made them upset. There were discussions about that. More recently, a member left. When they did, their avatar was changed--by what force and for what purpose, I do not know. It was interpreted as a slight by some, which sparked a remarkably quiet and peaceful protest, which is why you've seen some white/blank avatars around here. TPTB decided that certain people needed time to themselves, and temporarily banned a handful of members for the space of a night or a weekend, I forget which. This was also interpreted as a slight and, more commonly, thought to be an abuse of power by some and a necessary measure by others.

This brings us to the current debate, raging in places far away from the eyes of new members--intentionally so, in most cases, so as not to startle, frighten, or influence them (whether or not it is the right course of action)--which is this: Has TOTJO outgrown its current form of management? Are powers vested in the appropriate places? These questions are the questions the leadership and the knights seek to find a resolution for.

The problem is that we're all very, very tired right now, in all the ways that sleep cannot fix. And everyone, on every side, is letting that show a little too much. I'm sorry if this has frightened any of you, confused any of you, or enraged any of you. We've all let our tempers get the best of us, forgetting important parts of the Jedi Code:

Emotion, yet Peace
Ignorance, yet Knowledge
Passion, yet Serenity
Chaos, yet Harmony

We have failed you in these regards, and I ask your forgiveness on our behalf.

If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, I will do what I can to help.
Last edit: 21 Aug 2017 05:08 by steamboat28.

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21 Aug 2017 05:37 #298906 by Avalon

Avalonslight wrote: Anyone,

If you have any questions, my skype and my email are in my signature. I will help as much as I can, based on the information which I have. And I'll do it as many times as anyone needs. I'm just an apprentice. I won't be able to provide all the answers. But I will do what I can.


Not all those who wander are lost
Studies Journal | Personal Journal
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21 Aug 2017 07:13 #298916 by Ardainyo
I have been absent from the site for a few months as real life took some strange turns. When I returned a couple days ago, to find the place in turmoil, I felt a lot of confusion and sorrow. I hadn't the time or strength to dig very deep, but I did see a little. This thread here is very insightful, and I thank you for clearing up this matter to the best of your ability.

I don't intend on leaving. Not at this time. The gossip and venom is easy for me to ignore, as I don't feel it interferes with my personal spiritual path, and only serves as a distraction from my true goal - improvement of myself as a Jedi.

Thank you again for this. I hope to see your posts again soon.
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21 Aug 2017 11:34 - 21 Aug 2017 11:36 #298926 by Johno
Thanks for filling us in to the events leading to this juncture. I have to admit I've only been here a week or two and have noticed a dramatic shift on this site in that time.
My guess is that most people are here because they see it adds value to their lives. It is a shame but these sorts of conflicts arise sometimes in every domain of life. Even the closest families have their disagreements.
I am an impartial observer here, a visitor from Jedi Living and a student of Jedi Philosophy so I accept my view counts for little. However I do hope that the people involved can sort out their differences and move on with the mission they set themselves when they chose this path.
The Jedi Path has helped keep me sober and has changed my life for the better over the last three years. That's what its about for me. The veterans and the custodians of the Path have a duty to keep the Jedi movement alive and the community growing. So I wish you luck.

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" - Yoda
"We are spiritual beings having a human experience." -Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

www.dailyjedi.com
Last edit: 21 Aug 2017 11:36 by Johno. Reason: grammar
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21 Aug 2017 12:13 #298937 by Nami
Thanks for this thread.
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21 Aug 2017 12:20 - 21 Aug 2017 13:05 #298938 by Aqua
Thank you Steamboat. :)

I would like to share this video for self-reflection purpose:


Inclino, Tolero, Speculum
Last edit: 21 Aug 2017 13:05 by Aqua.
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21 Aug 2017 12:23 #298939 by Kobos
Thank you Steamboat!

Many of us who took part forgot in the most important part of why we are here because we were in our own selfish realization that the arguments and discussions we were involved in led to more damage than we were allowing ourselves to be aware.

Don't be scared guys, like steamboat said a lot of us are very tired (we will get better) but we are still here and ready to help anyone who needs help with anything. If you have questions, uncertainties or wanna just reem me out for not being a good example for you guys you are more then welcome. What you say stays between me or you unless you represent a danger to yourself or others (not that you would, I'm a professional educator one of those things I've learned need to be shared.

Peace, Love, and the Force,
Tim

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
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21 Aug 2017 22:04 - 21 Aug 2017 22:14 #299043 by OB1Shinobi
Steamboat: Thank you. I very much appreciate that you are willing to talk to us about all of this. For many of the members im sure that your synopsis is sufficient to easing their concerns, as it leaves one feeling not-quite so clueless. For me unfortunately, lifelong fan of sherlock holmes and amateur investigator that i am, it only serves to refine my questions so that i can evolve my understanding to the next highest level of resolution. Im not sure how much youre allowed or willing to divulge, and i also know that you have a lot of work that you have to attend to, so im going to ask what id like to ask but i wont hold it against you if you arent able to answer.

steamboat28 wrote: The road that has led us to this particular juncture starts a long time ago, when it was stated that perhaps Knights should have a more active role in the day-to-day affairs.


Well, "a more active role" doesnt explain much. What exactly did the Knights want to do? What changes did they want to make? Did they have specific ideas for changes, or did they just want the ability to make changes as they saw fit?If they had specific ideas, did they offer considered rationales for why they should happen and how to implement them?
Did they generate predictions or at least some clear expectations of what the changes would/should accomplish, so that if the intended progress wasnt forthcoming it would be observable?

steamboat28 wrote: Fast-forward to a few weeks ago, when an Advisory Council was announced to help make decisions for TOTJO. Some people thought the experience would be different than it turned out to be, and this made them upset. There were discussions about that. More recently, a member left. More recently, a member left.


So im guessing that (at least some of) the Knights felt that the Advisory Council was a compromise or concession in name only, which didnt actually provide them with what they were hoping for.. But what were they hoping for?

I am going to skip most of your post because i dont know that my responses would be helpful.. so..

steamboat28 wrote: This brings us to the current debate, raging in places far away from the eyes of new members--intentionally so, in most cases, so as not to startle, frighten, or influence them (whether or not it is the right course of action)--which is this: Has TOTJO outgrown its current form of management? Are powers vested in the appropriate places? These questions are the questions the leadership and the knights seek to find a resolution for.


Besides repeating the comments i just made regarding specificity of goals and caution about their implementation, the other thing that seems pretty logical to me is that Br Jon is probably not going to allow the power structure to change in such a away that other people can take control of the Temple and transform it into something that is contrary to his basic vision. And to be honest, I wouldnt either, if i were in his shoes. Of course I dont know if thats whats happening or not, but my experience with Br Jon has been that he is willing to listen and to compromise with people, when they are being reasonable. He did that for me on an occasion when i had an issue here.

My experience with the knights here is that for the most part they are principled people who are sincere about making this place a healthy and vibrant community.

I dont know what kinds of changes people are calling for, but i know its incredibly easy to break a system by tinkering with it. And that it takes a lot of careful consideration to change a system for the better. I also can see that this tumult -which appears from my outside-looking-in vantage point to be essentially a struggle over authority - has resulted in a fair bit of hard feelings, uncertainty and confusion in the general membership, and multiple long standing members choosing to leave.

TRANSPARENCY
Ive come to believe that I personally would rather virtually-total transparency. Not to say that i should be privy to the conversations between individual knights and their apprentices or anything like that, but this whole discussion about changes and this Advisory Council.. it would be great to see what people are actually saying and how the individuals involved in this issue are carrying themselves. Previously, I was unconcerned about transparency because i didnt think there was anything to see lol, nothing exciting really. And i assumed that everything was being handled with the emotional maturity of Jedi. Now something has gone awry, and not only am i unable to help (because i dont have the info necessary to be of any help) but im left in doubt as to who is really trying to help (and what they think "help" means) and who is only trying to win.. I definitely dont buy the idea that I am being protected by not being able to judge these things for myself...the opposite actually.

What is it that you want to achieve? What are the objections?
Am i making things worse (or just wasting my time) by asking?

If you cant breath then none of us can.
Last edit: 21 Aug 2017 22:14 by OB1Shinobi.

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21 Aug 2017 22:23 - 21 Aug 2017 22:23 #299044 by steamboat28

OB1Shinobi wrote: What exactly did the Knights want to do?

It was stated that they'd have more of the decisionmaking power onsite while the Council maintained a more administrative role.

OB1Shinobi wrote: So im guessing that (at least some of) the Knights felt that the Advisory Council was a compromise or concession in name only, which didnt actually provide them with what they were hoping for.. But what were they hoping for?

Some felt they were misled about the depth of the Advisory role they had been granted. They felt ignored and talked over, something "advisors" should not feel. There was discussion about blame which solved nothing, and it was said that the Council would do better, but much of the damage had already been done.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Besides repeating the comments i just made regarding specificity of goals and caution about their implementation, the other thing that seems pretty logical to me is that Br Jon is probably not going to allow the power structure to change in such a away that other people can take control of the Temple and transform it into something that is contrary to his basic vision.

No one is trying to make the Temple anything contrary to what it should be. Those of us that want change are simply trying to make the paperwork catch up with what the Temple is. The governing documents for this Temple (the ones that matter legally) have not been updated in a very long while, and membership and outreach programs and many other things about the Temple have changed since they were last updated. There is a push to reconcile the manner of leadership in the Temple with the growth of the Temple in such a way that we can move forward in the best possible manner.

OB1Shinobi wrote: I dont know what kinds of changes people are calling for, but i know its incredibly easy to break a system by tinkering with it. And that it takes a lot of careful consideration to change a system for the better. I also can see that this tumult -which appears from my outside-looking-in vantage point to be essentially a struggle over authority - has resulted in a fair bit of hard feelings, uncertainty and confusion in the general membership, and multiple long standing members choosing to leave.

None of these statements are incorrect, but they're also not all applicable to this situation at once.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Ive come to believe that I personally would rather virtually-total transparency. Not to say that i should be privy to the conversations between individual knights and their apprentices or anything like that, but this whole discussion about changes and this Advisory Council.. it would be great to see what people are actually saying and how the individuals involved in this issue are carrying themselves. Previously, I was unconcerned about transparency because i didnt think there was anything to see lol, nothing exciting really. And i assumed that everything was being handled with the emotional maturity of Jedi. Now something has gone awry, and not only am i unable to help (because i dont have the info necessary to be of any help) but im left in doubt as to who is really trying to help and who is only trying to win.. I definitely dont buy the idea that I am being protected by not being able to judge these things for myself...the opposite actually.

I agree with you, but sensibility requires that I be judicious in what I share at this moment.
Last edit: 21 Aug 2017 22:23 by steamboat28.
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